Blood Weapon / other DRK suggestions:

[JackFross]

As for DA-CnS: Sure, I can reserve it to use with DA. Provided I don't have to redirect too much mana into defensive CDs, because I have the habit of rotating them, so I almost always have grit + some CD going.

DA defensive cooldowns aren't things you just use because it's a cooldown and you want mitigation. You're supposed to time those properly so that they DON'T become a drain on your mana. And there's only two defensive cooldowns that eat Mana, anyway, and neither of them tend to be super useful in single-target fights outside of specific instances in raids for DA+DM.

Using CnS without buff on single target is also absolutely fine, if you sit in Grit or no, because of reasons, that may happen.
CnS has mana recover and it shoudn't be discarded, or said that starving for mana was played wrong as DRK. i am always around 40%-20% mana after dropping grit between Blood Weapon cooldowns. And I know how to DRK, trust me. :P

It can absolutely be said that if you're starved for Mana at the 60s mark when CaS comes off cooldown (or at the 30s mark when Dark Passenger is back), you mismanaged your Mana. Like. That's exactly what it means. In a single-target situation, as I just mentioned, your Mana is only used to DA a Souleater or to shoot off Dark Passenger and DA+CaS. If you're lacking for the latter two, you wasted too much on the former one. I say wasted, because DA+SE is the least efficient use of Mana and should only be used when you'll otherwise hit maximum, or when you'll still have enough for the next DP / DA+CaS if they're about to come off cooldown.

Any time you're using CaS for Mana in a single-target encounter, you overextended your Mana reserves. It happens to the best Dark Knights, but that doesn't mean it's "fine" when considering how to play the class optimally.

On a PvE aspect, I think the skill is just lackluster compared to it's comparables

Thoughts?

This whole discussion is super fair. You bring up a lot of good points I hadn't really thought about. Sure, you can play it assuming you have SoSu, but you can also play it just fine without even ever having the skill. And that's where you guys are all seeing an issue. Sorry for being such a blockhead. D:

That said, not sure about the dot drain - it sounds similar to Circle of Scorn, but I like that idea. Something you can only activate when you're at low health which gives you some sort of regen effect. A DoT drain, heals when you take damage (like BP for Health), or even just a flat regen effect on yourself. It'd synergize well with Living Dead in any of these scenarios, and would overall be a better addition to the kit, for sure.

[Jhett_Magnum]

There's nothing wrong with Dark Arts.
Aren't you the one who says the tanks need to be different? Give them time to develop, and as we get more skills/ traits each tank will feel better to use.

DRK is meant to have a higher skill cap though, and if you don't like Dark Arts now then consider playing the other two tanks.

Now if only you would push for OT utility I would support this thread, because MY main gripe with DRK is the fact that its heavily frowned upon using PLD/DRK raid compositions.

[Violette]

There's nothing wrong with Dark Arts.
Aren't you the one who says the tanks need to be different? Give them time to develop, and as we get more skills/ traits each tank will feel better to use.

DRK is meant to have a higher skill cap though, and if you don't like Dark Arts now then consider playing the other two tanks.

Now if only you would push for OT utility I would support this thread, because MY main gripe with DRK is the fact that its heavily frowned upon using PLD/DRK raid compositions.

Use Drk/Pld then. More raid dps and better parry proc abilities.

[KrenianKandos]

This whole discussion is super fair. You bring up a lot of good points I hadn't really thought about. Sure, you can play it assuming you have SoSu, but you can also play it just fine without even ever having the skill. And that's where you guys are all seeing an issue. Sorry for being such a blockhead. D:

That said, not sure about the dot drain - it sounds similar to Circle of Scorn, but I like that idea. Something you can only activate when you're at low health which gives you some sort of regen effect. A DoT drain, heals when you take damage (like BP for Health), or even just a flat regen effect on yourself. It'd synergize well with Living Dead in any of these scenarios, and would overall be a better addition to the kit, for sure.

What is a forum if not a place for people to bounce ideas? I've had my disagreements with individuals on this thread alone but that doesn't mean I'm not open to conversation. No need to apologize. We all get stubborn. =)

The DoT would fall in line with the lore of Dark Knight. It would also give us some sort of sustained heal while damaging an enemy, similar to Mercy Stroke but a different flavor/style. Yeah, it could be worse if the damage on that one mob actually dies before the tick goes through, but the idea is to make it different enough to feel like a skill that belongs with the Dark Knight and useful without it being nothing until something dies.

[Kabooa]

Use Drk/Pld then. More raid dps and better parry proc abilities.

The issue being that the tanks aren't fighting for tank spots. Dark Knights and paladins fight for a spot while the warrior has theirs near guaranteed. Swapping Dark and Paladin from Ot to MT isn't the issue, the issue is that Dark and Paladin combos bring significantly less than War / Other combos.

[Yuni_Queen]

In a single-target situation, as I just mentioned, your Mana is only used to DA a Souleater or to shoot off Dark Passenger and DA+CaS. If you're lacking for the latter two, you wasted too much on the former one. I say wasted, because DA+SE is the least efficient use of Mana and should only be used when you'll otherwise hit maximum, or when you'll still have enough for the next DP / DA+CaS if they're about to come off cooldown.

Wait, wait! On single target if you have to choose between DA+SE or DA+DP you choose DA+SE D: 140 more potency compared to additional 100 and blind.
Of course, you should conserve enough mana to buff CnS, but you speak about perfect situation when you can hold static 30% mp without intrusions, i of course had in mind situation that has gotten out of control due to anything.

The DoT would fall in line with the lore of Dark Knight. It would also give us some sort of sustained heal while damaging an enemy, similar to Mercy Stroke but a different flavor/style. Yeah, it could be worse if the damage on that one mob actually dies before the tick goes through

Actually once the mob die, DRK could regain remaining DoTs timer in an instant. Oh! Like Thundercloud for BLM is working, if you know what i mean. But i quess that would be OP. Ultimate healing.

[Granyala]

DA defensive cooldowns aren't things you just use because it's a cooldown and you want mitigation. You're supposed to time those properly so that they DON'T become a drain on your mana.

Mitigation is mitigation and as a tank my job is to mitigate as much damage as possible.
I see nothing wrong with using them on CD (the blue one at least) unless you know sth is going to happen later where you need it.

Though usually I am mana starved because I have to spam the TP combo since, as a hobbytank with rather crappy gear, the osmosis combo doesn't generate enough threat against well geared DPS and Dark side slowly drains my mana.

[JackFross]

Wait, wait! On single target if you have to choose between DA+SE or DA+DP you choose DA+SE D: 140 more potency compared to additional 100 and blind.

I mean, I ignored the DA+DP option because that's just nonsense to use in single-target.

Also. 120 potency. Not 140.
DA+SE is 400.
SE is 260.
Delirium is 280.
If you're not using DA, you use Delirium, not Souleater. Always. Every time. The leech from Souleater in Grit is never /ever/ what'll save you from death, except in rare cases when under DA. I use SE in trash pulls (unless there's a caster mob to slap with Delirium) because my health drops a lot more consistently there.

But you should usually not even be in Grit, so the leech doesn't matter!

Of course, you should conserve enough mana to buff CnS, but you speak about perfect situation when you can hold static 30% mp without intrusions, i of course had in mind situation that has gotten out of control due to anything.

I'm speaking about every situation. You should never be burning Mana in situations where something gets out of control. You only use Mana for defense on two skills which are not panic buttons. You don't spend Mana to press Living Dead or Shadow Wall or Shadowskin, only to add Evasion to Dark Dance (an unreliable way to curb a down-turn situation) or bolster the magic resist on Dark Mind (a skill that also doesn't curb a down-turn situation except against very specific bosses).

There's no reason your Mana will not be prepared for DA+CaS and DP unless you manage it improperly (skipping Blood Price, using too much DA+SE, or spamming PS are the only ways this happens - spamming PS is never necessary if you don't drop Grit, and if you DO drop Grit, PS use is outweighed significantly by Blood Weapon.

Mitigation is mitigation and as a tank my job is to mitigate as much damage as possible.
I see nothing wrong with using them on CD (the blue one at least) unless you know sth is going to happen later where you need it.

Though usually I am mana starved because I have to spam the TP combo since, as a hobbytank with rather crappy gear, the osmosis combo doesn't generate enough threat against well geared DPS and Dark side slowly drains my mana.

Mitigation is mitigation, but I will just never agree that you should be burning DA+DM or DA+DD on cooldown. Using them WITHOUT DA on cooldown, sure. But with it? Absolutely not. And, even if you /are/ doing that, you get 3-4 DA+SE between shots of DA+CaS - turning one of those into a DA+DD doesn't mean you won't have mana for DA+CaS or for DP. It's still on that same 60s cooldown.

I definitely feel you on the latter, though. Power Slash is a huge drain on Mana when out of Grit. I've never had issues holding hate after one shot of PS while in Grit, though, so I dunno about there - and that's with my DRK being my alt Job at ~i216 selling content with i230+ dps with their 2200-3000 dps openers. As soon as that Power Slash falls, the boss is mine. I tend to stay in Grit if I have dps who are doing that much damage (and thus never need more PS unless the WHM/AST is overhealing) since there's no reason to risk a wipe for my dps boost when I have 4 dps pulling 1400+.

And out of Grit, Blood Weapon offsets the loss from Power Slash substantially. I'll get actual numbers on that later. But if I were to give a rough estimate, 1 Blood Weapon is ~3 shots of Syphon Strike, it feels like, so just one cast of it offsets three Power Slashes. Though it's highly likely I'm overestimating how much Mana Blood Weapon gives.

[Violette]

DD's a defensive skill?

I thought it's main use was to proc LOWER BLOWS AND REPRISAL.

ALL.
THE.
TIME.(SALS).


imsorryplzdonthurtme.

Also the best mitigation is one more dead target.
Burning expensive cooldowns on cooldown at the cost of more offensive might when the mitigation is NOT REQUIRED (i.e. small trash pulls) is playing poorly, even if you are a tank.

[JackFross]

Quick addition of numbers - Each shot of Blood Weapon is 1/3 of a Syphon Strike and every Blood Weapon gets you 7 GCDs and 6 Autos for a total of 13 hits (not counting any ogcd skills that hit in there) which equates to an additional +4 Syphon Strikes - aka 4 free shots of Power Slash. Since the mod on Grit is x2.3, we can assume we only need +1 Power Slashes every time we would need 1 in Grit in order to maintain our threat lead - likely needing to use additional ones later on and such.

Either way, as long as we're using fewer than 4 per 45s (and 45s is 6 combos), we're still getting a net gain in Mana from having Grit off.

I have no idea where this was going, but these are interesting numbers to me;;;;