Tier list!

[Cynric]

When you make a tier list, you make it for a specific game mode, as class potential varies based on the nature of the game. For example, a WAR by far the best tank in Solo Queue while PLD exceeds it by leaps and bounds in premade. Most games have similar formats of separate tier lists.

Also, when I said "potential vs effectiveness" what I meant was that it seemed OP's list was developed with a one-sided match in mind, especially in the sleep department. In a perfect condition, a WHM would have to use FOUR GCDs to use up all of the enemy team's purifies. In a game where it is very possible to kill someone in 2-3 GCDs, sometimes even 1 GCD under certain conditions, those GCDs not being used for healing is extremely risky, and often detrimental. This was obviously not taken into account when OP made the list.

If you have any data as to why Warrior is better than paladin then please present it.

This is open for debate and discussion, which has been happening through most of the thread.

As for White mage, I've already posted other things about them but I will say this, if your White mage is the only thing on your team forcing opponents into using purify, then it's a problem with the players not the job. White mage also has more CC than just sleep. I would also like to note that if you are focusing enough burst on one player to kill them that quickly, unless their healer is occupied(and hasn't already CC'd their harasser) then that leaves you open for CC or their target for heals.

As for whether this is for premade or for solo queue. I said in the original post that this is an opinionated and general tier list, I also said to feel free ask questions or what have you. I didn't fully explain anything so there can be discussion. Tier lists are always open for discussion.(Unless the maker isn't interested in making them factual in the first place)

I'm not saying this is my 100% Accurate Tier list no questions asked.

If you have valuable data on anything you suspect I don't mind discussing it with you. Currently not enough data has been presented or certain jobs were agreed upon by others. So if you have anything to contribute in that aspect please do. I'm not infallible and may have missed something while I was bored in class and hoping to have some discussion on the current state of the game and where the jobs fall in to place in PVP.

I did however take potential versus effectiveness in mind as far as I'm aware. I also considered the various tools in relation to the other jobs as well, Burst, Crowd Control, Utility, Sustain DPS after burst, Timing of burst windows, Types of Crowd Control used, whether any jobs can counter another job,(ie, Mnk >SCH,SMN>AST), and how easily they can do this all effectively when played to their maximum.

[Renault]

Well there's only really one mode that's worth talking about at the moment.

How so? Solo Queue and Premade are both worth discussing, I think.

If you have any data as to why Warrior is better than paladin then please present it.

I'm cutting out the rest of your post because we could have an entire thread discussing WHM and it's potential. The bottom line is that it and AST are on pretty equal footing. WHM has it's own win condition, but the AST is far more consistent and durable.

As for why WAR is better than PLD, I meant for Solo Queue. Here's the thing about Solo Queue, you need to throw comps aside and their tier list should display what classes are more likely to CARRY a game, not just perform their role well. As a WAR, you are a beefy DPS. You can pick up medals, and you often go ignored, leaving you free to burst, and BOY can you burst. I've seen good WAR's 100-0 unsuspecting players in seconds with their wombo combo. The thing is with cover, it is rarely used offensively in solo queue and requires coordination, something that shouldn't give it points on a tier list. Tetsudo doesn't close out games or carry, though a well timed one will -prolong- a game (all defensive abilities due this). PLD stun locks and control need to be coordinated with DPS so that your team can turn that into kills. A PLD will not get a solo kill on any player with half a brain. What I'm getting at here is that WAR has the potential to single handedly carry a match, while a PLD does not.

[Cynric]

snip.

We're in the same data center yet I think your matches go very differently than mine do. I've seen cover used effectively both offensively and defensively just fine.

I've also seen Warrior burst shut down by many players with purify leaving a warrior bound and losing out on CD's. I myself have saved healers or even healed myself (using second wind and recouperate) from Warriors burst just fine. I've also seen Paladins effectively using their toolkit to harass and stun multiple players making full use of Shield Bash and amazing use of full swing,spirits, clemency, Hallowed, and veil.

That's the thing about Solo queue. A good player on a good job can kind of carry a bad team, unless the healer is bad or the opponents are better. Solo queue is 100% RNG.

If I were to comment on AST in relative to WHM specifically in solo queue, Nocturnal AST is less reliable in solo queue than WHM. AST can't handle spread damage across the team and keep themselves alive at the same time if the DPS and tanks actually know a little bit of what they're doing.

And if we were talking about solo queue then there's two extremes that need to be addressed.

There are extremely good players, and extremely bad players.

Extremely good players are what this list would follow, Extremely bad players are snowballed by sleep, low levels of burst,any kind of CC, I had a Scholar that only used Physik to heal, I actually restored more health over the match time than they did on my Monk. Then I've had good players who are capable of planning a coordinated burst in the pre match time frame and the match ends very quickly.

You honestly can not really rate Solo queue. That's why I chose instead to rate the jobs generally.

What would you rather have? A Warrior that doesn't know what do when fellcleave fails? Or a Dark Knight that stunned the healer at just the right time? Clearly Dark knight is the worse job here, they just did the right thing at the right time.

If you want to rate the ability to carry in Solo queue based fully on RNG teams without considering balance as a whole that's fine.

But I personally would rather rate balance as a whole, have some discussion on that balance and maybe even possibly have the developer make correct balance decisions based on our feedback.

Edit: Since i'm gong to sleep now I'll leave this here as well.

Your mileage may vary in solo queue from astoundingly bad players no matter what job, to astoundingly good players. I can easily say i've seen huge variations in player tendencies, from people breaking sleep often, to near perfect CC and even limit break coordination, I've seen tanks with 9 stacks go right to the enemy and die , and I've seen players in general with multiple stacks run and hide to time out the match.

Basically what I'm trying to say is no matter what solo queue will always be about the skill of your team versus the skill of your opponents, if everyone is equal skill, tiers come into play and balance is easier shown, If anyone on the team is less than skilled it wasn't a fair match to begin with.

Worry about the player first, then the job, good players will coordinate just fine, there's nothing you can do to carry a bad healer, a tank or dps that doesn't know how to fall back, or a DPS that can hardly DPS and dies all the time,(well maybe you can carry this) that winds up being specific to the job aside from making smart plays and decisions yourself.

[Renault]

If I were to comment on AST in relative to WHM specifically in solo queue, Nocturnal AST is less reliable in solo queue than WHM. AST can't handle spread damage across the team and keep themselves alive at the same time if the DPS and tanks actually know a little bit of what they're doing.

I bolded a piece of your statement to help you realize the issue with how you're grading these situations. Your analysis is dependent on your teammates being reliable. That's not how job ratings for solo should work. AST has pretty much zero problems now that SMN has been nerfed and has fallen out of the preseason meta.

And you may say you'd rather"Rate balance as a whole" but it simply doesn't work like that in terms of making a tier list, as different jobs are more effective in different settings (BLM in particular is great in premade but very average in Solo Q. SMN is a good pick in Solo Q but pretty weak in premade.) As we've seen in countless multiplayer games, you cannot effectively balance around multiple game types, so it's better to pick one and stick with it. That is true for this game as well. So if you're aiming this thread's purpose to be for feedback on class/job balance, I suggest you pick a game mode and stick with it.

[Cynric]

I'm keeping it how it is based on general performance . If you'd like to gather feedback on how much a job can carry then by all means go ahead.(meaning we buff or nerf based on being able to carry in solo queues...) However it's the player carrying in solo queue. Solo and premade tier lists only exist in league as far as I know and that is a very different game.

I'd gladly participate if you want to do that. I however will not be doing it. I don't evaluate based on rng teams. I evaluate based on good players

[RiceisNice]

How so? Solo Queue and Premade are both worth discussing, I think.

They're both in the same flow of gameplay and the objectives do not change. At that point you're factoring the variable of individual player skill, which really has no place in a tier discussion (since it's based off equal player skill on both sides). If you want to rate them based on player skill variables or ease of use, then there can be another tier list for just that, but that's not what a traditional tier list considers.

So, no class can shut down a good MNK?

Nothing that works exclusively on monk that it doesn't work on other jobs, at least as far as I'm concerned. I would not say a MCH's initial burst is anymore reliable or flexible compared to say, BRD or SMN because of the presiquirtes behind it. They need the 540 potency from BtE, and that usually means going after the MNK or DRG on first contact is not an option because of fetter ward. A scholar's healing ability gets shut down hard by MNK, more so than any other melee job because not only do they boast high damage, but also removing aetherflow (which happens to be their resource for healing)

Drg has the fastest kill time from the 3 Melee if ninja had fetter it would be a tie, I'm a main monk I know what monk is capable of. But I've also know and have had the pleasure of playing against some of the best drgs that aether data center and primal have to offer and a great drg vs a great monk 9 times out of 10 a drg will take the burst battle. One elm punch is great it's a God send. But it's still rng as to which buff you will be stripping. You are also losing out on one of monks biggest damages buffs in Twin snakes. All my opinions are coming from a premade point of view where coordination is key.

In light of the somersault changes, a monk can do well at least 3-4 punches40 seconds. It can screw with a scholar's flow of healing because no aetherflow means no indomitably or lustrate, and a SMN has to juggle between two forms of buffs (aetherflow and aethertrail) and losing either can be a wrench in the spanners. DRG beats out monk in burst, but it's not by a gaping longshot, and they don't have other forms of pressuring comparable to monk. They have self-prerverance through higher hp pools, mitigation and life surge.