Tier list!

[Isala]

Kinda giggle where you put WHMs, when as a BRD, I can pincushion them in a few seconds. Unless they're in their circle or attuned, my burst window instantly ends them. My setup is enough to get off that measly Stoneskin, allowing me to unload every single bit of spike into their squishy caster body. And we bards are hardly C. Just as much burst, if not more, than any other class, and able to instantly remove sleeps off the healer using Warden, as well as one of only two classes that give mana back.

[RiceisNice]

Kinda giggle where you put WHMs, when as a BRD, I can pincushion them in a few seconds. Unless they're in their circle or attuned, my burst window instantly ends them. My setup is enough to get off that measly Stoneskin, allowing me to unload every single bit of spike into their squishy caster body. And we bards are hardly C. Just as much burst, if not more, than any other class, and able to instantly remove sleeps off the healer using Warden, as well as one of only two classes that give mana back.

You can say that with just about any other job that can burst. That sort of set up can be counter played with more damage shields/mitigation through the form of divine veil, testudo or defense buff, nor do you want it necessarily ignore the WHM even if he has defense buff because then they'll be able to throw out CCs on you.

And as a side thing, the tiers should be taken relative to each other jobs in their respective roles, due to the format forcing you to have those roles anyway. Really can't do direct comparisons to WHM:BRD (I can kill the WHM easily as a BRD), compared to WHM:SCH (my BRD can kill a WHM much more easily than I can kill a SCH),

[Isala]

And as a side thing, the tiers should be taken relative to each other jobs in their respective roles, due to the format forcing you to have those roles anyway. Really can't do direct comparisons to WHM:BRD (I can kill the WHM easily as a BRD), compared to WHM:SCH (my BRD can kill a WHM much more easily than I can kill a SCH),

In that case, I'm even more confused with your placement of BLM... Considering just how easy they are to shut down. Any class with a stun, silence or knockback can ruin their day, especially with those massive cast timers on their burst spells. Sure, they have sleep spam, but again... Bard. Warden's is OP for getting rid of sleep on healers, and the recast timer pops up long before the DR goes away. And MCH would actually be over them even further than I am, with Stun/Silence and Knockback.

[RiceisNice]

In that case, I'm even more confused with your placement of BLM... Considering just how easy they are to shut down. Any class with a stun, silence or knockback can ruin their day, especially with those massive cast timers on their burst spells. Sure, they have sleep spam, but again... Bard. Warden's is OP for getting rid of sleep on healers, and the recast timer pops up long before the DR goes away. And MCH would actually be over them even further than I am, with Stun/Silence and Knockback.

You'd need at least one melee and one other dps on the BLM (or any caster for that matter) to be able to effectively shut them down with the interrupt changes; there isn't enough silence or knockbacks (and stun, but that's not exclusive to interrupting just BLMs) to put them out for long in relation to what they can do over a period of time. And help you if you're running against a WHM/BLM combo, because there's no way you can realistically shut them both down beyond your stun DRs (which only a paladin can do reliably) or split burst damage (which gets downplayed by mitigation).

BRD and MCH, their dps outside of burst is pitifully low compared to a BLM, and they honestly won't make anything happen unless you're against an astro healer (in which case BLM still does that area better anyway). Their CC abilities are relatively lacking compared to a SMN and BLM.

[Renault]

There's a few problems with your tier list.

Problem 1: You don't specify which game mode. You say "individual performance" but honestly if this is a Solo Queue tier, it's far off. If this is a premade tier, it is again, very far off. Different tiers of difficulty would also have different tier lists, as some classes are super good at stomping nubs while others are more effective against organized teams.

Problem 2: You offer little explanation for your choices, which makes it unclear why you believe them to be strong. By looking at your list, I'd say you chose the classes to be "S" tier just because of their CC and ability to shut down other classes. Also saying "counters" doesn't really apply for some of your tiers, especially DRK. It's not that DRK doesn't have counters, it's just that the class lacks in both damage and utility.

Problem 3: Another way it seems that you're measuring this is by a classes potential, not so much their effectiveness. For example: In a perfect condition, sleep is probably the most powerful spell in PVP. This is why I'm assuming you placed WHM/BLM in S-tier. Realistically, sleeps will be purified (or broken, if we are speaking Solo Queue), so their effectiveness is reduced, especially on WHM where every GCD counts during heavy burst.

Problem 4: MCH is easily the most broken class in the game right now for PVP, and you have it at...Tier B? It shows inexperience on your part. I'd say instead of making a tier list, a discussion should be had around making said tier list.

[Jubez187]

I don't think PLD is ahead of WAR after the patch. Especially not for solo q when it's harder to get people to actually capitalize on your CC, and the DPS alone can't kill a target (I'm usually one of the biggest contributors to DPS in most of my solo q games). Any WAR that googles how to double memecleave is going to have a far easier time in solo queue.

Peeling potential is good, but only when your DPS can do the job. If not, you're just surviving to survive, can't actually get ahead like that.

[RiceisNice]

There's a few problems with your tier list....

The thing with tier lists is that it assumes the absolute pinnacle of play and equal coordination on both sides. When you start to dive into "but in solo queue", then the entire point of a tier list is rendered moot. That being said though...

Problem 1: You don't specify which game mode. You say "individual performance" but honestly if this is a Solo Queue tier, it's far off. If this is a premade tier, it is again, very far off. Different tiers of difficulty would also have different tier lists, as some classes are super good at stomping nubs while others are more effective against organized teams.

There's only one mode to go off of right now. As I mentioned before this is entirely the basis of a tier list, what a job is capable off (versus what they can consistently pull off) and how they interact with other jobs in a party and in a battle.

Problem 2: You offer little explanation for your choices, which makes it unclear why you believe them to be strong. By looking at your list, I'd say you chose the classes to be "S" tier just because of their CC and ability to shut down other classes. Also saying "counters" doesn't really apply for some of your tiers, especially DRK. It's not that DRK doesn't have counters, it's just that the class lacks in both damage and utility.

That's what the discussion is for, I'd think. DRK has nothing to offer that both PLD and WAR doesn't already do, and doesn't excel at anything. It gets to the point that it's kind of a liability when you can't edge out in burst, pressure or protection.

Problem 3: Another way it seems that you're measuring this is by a classes potential, not so much their effectiveness. For example: In a perfect condition, sleep is probably the most powerful spell in PVP. This is why I'm assuming you placed WHM/BLM in S-tier. Realistically, sleeps will be purified (or broken, if we are speaking Solo Queue), so their effectiveness is reduced, especially on WHM where every GCD counts during heavy burst.

Again, that's sort of the point of a tier list. Even in your example, forcing a purify is an incredibly strong tool, espesically since you won't have it for other CCs or debuffs like holmgang for full swing.

Problem 4: MCH is easily the most broken class in the game right now for PVP, and you have it at...Tier B? It shows inexperience on your part. I'd say instead of making a tier list, a discussion should be had around making said tier list.

MCH can't burst against a non-ninja melee, at least not reliably from the jumpstart, and frequently going after the healer/caster is not always a good alternative either. Any burst in general gets mitigated big time with proper setups, and MCH's damage outside of burst is incredibly low even compared to SMN (whom has comparable CC and DoTs that can pressure or force a GCD to be used on cleanse). Lack of any self-preservation tools is also a set back if you don't manage to kill within the initial burst.

[Renault]

Snip

When you make a tier list, you make it for a specific game mode, as class potential varies based on the nature of the game. For example, a WAR by far the best tank in Solo Queue while PLD exceeds it by leaps and bounds in premade. Most games have similar formats of separate tier lists.

Also, when I said "potential vs effectiveness" what I meant was that it seemed OP's list was developed with a one-sided match in mind, especially in the sleep department. In a perfect condition, a WHM would have to use FOUR GCDs to use up all of the enemy team's purifies. In a game where it is very possible to kill someone in 2-3 GCDs, sometimes even 1 GCD under certain conditions, those GCDs not being used for healing is extremely risky, and often detrimental. This was obviously not taken into account when OP made the list.

[Cynric]

snip

Bard is open to heavy counter play through CC and cleanses, has low CC itself, is reliant on buff timers, can only buff ninja /healer damage with foes due to forced comps, is rooted by cast times for highest burst, has a ranged penalty on damage, only one self heal, and can be shut down easily against capable players.

As matches get shorter the ability to regen mana will also become less useful. While regening mana you also incur a further damage penalty. Yes your burst is decent, but that's all you really have. Capable healers, DPS, and tanks can heal through, cleanse or shut down bard burst using CC.

Stone skin isn't the only thing white mage has. White mage has multiple forms of CC on differing diminishing returns, strong heals made better through the interruption change in patch 3.22, multiple forms of regen to help handle split damage, and great mp sustainability without a BRD/MCH.

Any DPS can burst a healer down through stoneskin, depending on the relative skill levels of both the healer and the DPS. However how often can said DPS do that? How much utility do they bring? How much CC? How badly are they countered through normal means like purify?

Bards burst availability, level of CC, and actually usable utility just isn't that great.

I'd also like to note that Wardens fades upon anything detrimental including DoTs. One DoT and a healer could be slept again, You could remove a Dragon Kick or a Storms eye/Dancing Edge, they could be slept and binded and you could just remove the bind.

While wardens has good potential its general variation among the debuffs weakens it, most debuffs and CC can also be re used very quickly. You'd have to babysit your healer to get real use out of it honestly.