Tier list!

[Exira]

Tier lists really need to be mode specific. If you want to discuss classes just call it that and not a tier list. You can't make a valid one that covers both modes at the same time. I'm with the rest, DRG is above MNK and is used exclusively in premades where healers are competent. Mantra and Dragon kick doesn't win matches...DRGs do. Finally can we stop claiming that MNK is a counter to SMN? It isn't and never has been

[Cynric]

snip

I already spoke on your first point a couple of times in the thread.

Feast isn't all about burst, feast is also about mitigating burst/surviving burst, and what you can do if/after your burst is halted, or your burst is on CD, a good healer as you say can heal through both Monk and Dragoon burst(If they see it coming and aren't CC'd or being harassed too much). However Monk has more options for making that healers job harder than Dragoon does because of its utility.

Both Monk and Dragoon have a ranged heavy, Both Monk and Dragoon have stun lock abilities. Both Monk and Dragoon have fetter ward.They're both melee and have access to that limit break. But what do they have the other does not?

Dragoon has Battle Litany making your team have a possibly higher burst potential, Dragoon has the only piercing buff to speak of. Dragoon can negate its positional requirements, where as Monk can not. Dragoon has a legitimate ranged attack to kill a retreating player where as Monk only has weapon throw. Dragoon can remove a bind/heavy twice a match.

However aside from Elusive jump they only gain more damage/team damage over a monk. What happens when that burst fails or is used up?

Monk however has answers to that problem and even more ways to save the team from the burst of other players.

Somersault + Feint on a 40 second CD makes healing much harder. One Ilm Punch takes away aetherflow very quickly when used properly, It also takes away regens, shields, procs, and buffs,(Including a Tanks defensive CD's they're using to mitigate the heavy medal penalty.) Somersault itself functions as a GL3 regeneration utility, a burst CD with a short cooldown, and gives you easier access to things like silence, Dragon Kick, and Twin snakes without having to move to that particular form.

Traited Mantra makes keeping the team up much easier against incoming burst.

AoE pacification can halt burst or kill attempts by your opponents for up to 10 seconds. While also functioning as a burst CD/ Instant GL3 regain CD.

Fists of Earth helps deal with incoming burst on yourself as well.

Shoulder tackle is also a much shorter CD than either of Dragoons gap closers. Fists of wind can increase Monks ability to chase while bursting without the use of their gap closer or sprint, as well as retreat easier.

If not for the somersault change I'd say they were almost comparable because of how strong Dragoon burst can be.

As for how Monk can counter Summoner. There are a few reasons.

#1 :One Ilm Punch can knock off aetherflow, leaving Summoner without their resource needed for burst for up to an entire minute.
#2: Somersault which allows One Ilm Punch spam(among other things) and is on a 40 second cooldown(shorter than aetherflow). While also able to make it harder for them to CC if swiftcast is on CD.
#3: Dragon Kick reduces the damage they can do by a bit. Before the nerf this was not a big deal, after the nerf it makes it harder for them to secure a kill, even more so against shielded/focalized players.
#4: Traited Mantra makes it easier to deal with the damage split Summoner is capable of.

You are wrong. It's random.

Are you 100% sure? Every time I One Ilm Punch Protect always eats the first dispel. Shame there's no 1v1 to test it. =/

Maybe it's something like Shielding first? It has to have some level of non RNG to it since Protect always gets dispelled first. Out of hundreds of matches I've always had to go through Protect to get to Aetherflow or another buff.

[Renault]

I already spoke on your first point a couple of times in the thread.

Feast isn't all about burst, feast is also about mitigating burst/surviving burst

The best way to survive burst is to burst the enemy team quicker. Honestly if you think PVP in this game is not about burst you're just dumb. The only true way to counter burst is through the use of OGCDs such as Sacred Prism, Tetsudo, Attunement, etc. There's very few abilities to rely on, and honestly with as high as the damage numbers are in the feast currently, those rarely stop focused burst. (Except Attunement).

[RiceisNice]

The best way to survive burst is to burst the enemy team quicker. Honestly if you think PVP in this game is not about burst you're just dumb. The only true way to counter burst is through the use of OGCDs such as Sacred Prism, Tetsudo, Attunement, etc. There's very few abilities to rely on, and honestly with as high as the damage numbers are in the feast currently, those rarely stop focused burst. (Except Attunement).

Outbursting the other team isn't always the answer. You're not going to outburst a team that has a PLD, MNK and SCH composition because of their starting mitigation, it's straight up ridiculous and honestly far too much damage to chew through. There's other ways of mitigating their burst through shields though, and you;d want to pull a team set up like that into a war of attrition (since SCH and PLD effectiveness goes down as the match goes on due to DR and aetherflow)

The ones that get used instantly? K....lol

You're still going through a minimum of four oGCDs inbetween your aetherflow and deathflare (assuming you're going DWT and straight into deathflare). That's far from instantaneous, and losing either aetherflow or aethertrail disrupts that.

[Renault]

Outbursting the other team isn't always the answer. You're not going to outburst a team that has a PLD, MNK and SCH composition because of their starting mitigation, it's straight up ridiculous and honestly far too much damage to chew through.

This statement right here solidifies the fact that you don't have much experience in the feast. Outbursting the other team is ALWAYS the answer. That is because you win the game by KILLING OTHER PLAYERS. If I see a PLD/MNK/SCH comp I'm going to laugh at my free win. I'm also guessing you mean that this comp throws up...Mantra, Tetsudo, and Deployment+Adlo all at the start? If that happens...Just walk away. Literally wait until their Tetsudo runs out and THEN engage them.

[RiceisNice]

This statement right here solidifies the fact that you don't have much experience in the feast.

Keep the credibility insults out of an argument, thanks. It adds nothing espesically when it can a misinterpretation or miscommunication (see below). Seriously.

Outbursting the other team is ALWAYS the answer. That is because you win the game by KILLING OTHER PLAYERS.

You win the game by getting 600 medals or timing out, straight up bursting is not always the answer/ You more or less answered my next point with this

If I see a PLD/MNK/SCH comp I'm going to laugh at my free win. I'm also guessing you mean that this comp throws up...Mantra, Tetsudo, and Deployment+Adlo all at the start? If that happens...Just walk away. Literally wait until their Tetsudo runs out and THEN engage them.

My point is that going in guns blazing from the start is not always the answer, which you seem to be implying when you say that burst is all that matters. The fact you're walking away and not attacking them means you're not bursting the other team, you're stalling and not playing to their strengths. Your last 2 statements is what's confusing me when you say "burst is always the answer", yet you answered against a composition like that by stalling, not bursting through it.

[Renault]

Snip + your last 2 statements is what's confusing me when you say "burst is always the answer", yet you answered against a composition like that by stalling, not bursting through it.

Timing your burst strategically is still considered burst. The term you're thinking of is "zerg" - Which would be when you blow everything right at the start to try and sweep the enemy team as quick as possible. "Burst" means to coordinate your attacks to take down and enemy quickly, as opposed to the opposite, which would be "Sustained damage".

[JzBen]

Tier lists really need to be mode specific. If you want to discuss classes just call it that and not a tier list. You can't make a valid one that covers both modes at the same time. I'm with the rest, DRG is above MNK and is used exclusively in premades where healers are competent. Mantra and Dragon kick doesn't win matches...DRGs do. Finally can we stop claiming that MNK is a counter to SMN? It isn't and never has been

Youre right, dragon kick and one ilm punch don't make smn about as useful as a botanist