Tier list!

[RiceisNice]

In that case, I'm even more confused with your placement of BLM... Considering just how easy they are to shut down. Any class with a stun, silence or knockback can ruin their day, especially with those massive cast timers on their burst spells. Sure, they have sleep spam, but again... Bard. Warden's is OP for getting rid of sleep on healers, and the recast timer pops up long before the DR goes away. And MCH would actually be over them even further than I am, with Stun/Silence and Knockback.

You'd need at least one melee and one other dps on the BLM (or any caster for that matter) to be able to effectively shut them down with the interrupt changes; there isn't enough silence or knockbacks (and stun, but that's not exclusive to interrupting just BLMs) to put them out for long in relation to what they can do over a period of time. And help you if you're running against a WHM/BLM combo, because there's no way you can realistically shut them both down beyond your stun DRs (which only a paladin can do reliably) or split burst damage (which gets downplayed by mitigation).

BRD and MCH, their dps outside of burst is pitifully low compared to a BLM, and they honestly won't make anything happen unless you're against an astro healer (in which case BLM still does that area better anyway). Their CC abilities are relatively lacking compared to a SMN and BLM.

[Renault]

There's a few problems with your tier list.

Problem 1: You don't specify which game mode. You say "individual performance" but honestly if this is a Solo Queue tier, it's far off. If this is a premade tier, it is again, very far off. Different tiers of difficulty would also have different tier lists, as some classes are super good at stomping nubs while others are more effective against organized teams.

Problem 2: You offer little explanation for your choices, which makes it unclear why you believe them to be strong. By looking at your list, I'd say you chose the classes to be "S" tier just because of their CC and ability to shut down other classes. Also saying "counters" doesn't really apply for some of your tiers, especially DRK. It's not that DRK doesn't have counters, it's just that the class lacks in both damage and utility.

Problem 3: Another way it seems that you're measuring this is by a classes potential, not so much their effectiveness. For example: In a perfect condition, sleep is probably the most powerful spell in PVP. This is why I'm assuming you placed WHM/BLM in S-tier. Realistically, sleeps will be purified (or broken, if we are speaking Solo Queue), so their effectiveness is reduced, especially on WHM where every GCD counts during heavy burst.

Problem 4: MCH is easily the most broken class in the game right now for PVP, and you have it at...Tier B? It shows inexperience on your part. I'd say instead of making a tier list, a discussion should be had around making said tier list.

[Jubez187]

I don't think PLD is ahead of WAR after the patch. Especially not for solo q when it's harder to get people to actually capitalize on your CC, and the DPS alone can't kill a target (I'm usually one of the biggest contributors to DPS in most of my solo q games). Any WAR that googles how to double memecleave is going to have a far easier time in solo queue.

Peeling potential is good, but only when your DPS can do the job. If not, you're just surviving to survive, can't actually get ahead like that.

[RiceisNice]

There's a few problems with your tier list....

The thing with tier lists is that it assumes the absolute pinnacle of play and equal coordination on both sides. When you start to dive into "but in solo queue", then the entire point of a tier list is rendered moot. That being said though...

Problem 1: You don't specify which game mode. You say "individual performance" but honestly if this is a Solo Queue tier, it's far off. If this is a premade tier, it is again, very far off. Different tiers of difficulty would also have different tier lists, as some classes are super good at stomping nubs while others are more effective against organized teams.

There's only one mode to go off of right now. As I mentioned before this is entirely the basis of a tier list, what a job is capable off (versus what they can consistently pull off) and how they interact with other jobs in a party and in a battle.

Problem 2: You offer little explanation for your choices, which makes it unclear why you believe them to be strong. By looking at your list, I'd say you chose the classes to be "S" tier just because of their CC and ability to shut down other classes. Also saying "counters" doesn't really apply for some of your tiers, especially DRK. It's not that DRK doesn't have counters, it's just that the class lacks in both damage and utility.

That's what the discussion is for, I'd think. DRK has nothing to offer that both PLD and WAR doesn't already do, and doesn't excel at anything. It gets to the point that it's kind of a liability when you can't edge out in burst, pressure or protection.

Problem 3: Another way it seems that you're measuring this is by a classes potential, not so much their effectiveness. For example: In a perfect condition, sleep is probably the most powerful spell in PVP. This is why I'm assuming you placed WHM/BLM in S-tier. Realistically, sleeps will be purified (or broken, if we are speaking Solo Queue), so their effectiveness is reduced, especially on WHM where every GCD counts during heavy burst.

Again, that's sort of the point of a tier list. Even in your example, forcing a purify is an incredibly strong tool, espesically since you won't have it for other CCs or debuffs like holmgang for full swing.

Problem 4: MCH is easily the most broken class in the game right now for PVP, and you have it at...Tier B? It shows inexperience on your part. I'd say instead of making a tier list, a discussion should be had around making said tier list.

MCH can't burst against a non-ninja melee, at least not reliably from the jumpstart, and frequently going after the healer/caster is not always a good alternative either. Any burst in general gets mitigated big time with proper setups, and MCH's damage outside of burst is incredibly low even compared to SMN (whom has comparable CC and DoTs that can pressure or force a GCD to be used on cleanse). Lack of any self-preservation tools is also a set back if you don't manage to kill within the initial burst.

[Renault]

Snip

When you make a tier list, you make it for a specific game mode, as class potential varies based on the nature of the game. For example, a WAR by far the best tank in Solo Queue while PLD exceeds it by leaps and bounds in premade. Most games have similar formats of separate tier lists.

Also, when I said "potential vs effectiveness" what I meant was that it seemed OP's list was developed with a one-sided match in mind, especially in the sleep department. In a perfect condition, a WHM would have to use FOUR GCDs to use up all of the enemy team's purifies. In a game where it is very possible to kill someone in 2-3 GCDs, sometimes even 1 GCD under certain conditions, those GCDs not being used for healing is extremely risky, and often detrimental. This was obviously not taken into account when OP made the list.

[RiceisNice]

When you make a tier list, you make it for a specific game mode, as class potential varies based on the nature of the game. For example, a WAR by far the best tank in Solo Queue while PLD exceeds it by leaps and bounds in premade. Most games have similar formats of separate tier lists.

Well there's only really one mode that's worth talking about at the moment.

Also, when I said "potential vs effectiveness" what I meant was that it seemed OP's list was developed with a one-sided match in mind, especially in the sleep department. In a perfect condition, a WHM would have to use FOUR GCDs to use up all of the enemy team's purifies. In a game where it is very possible to kill someone in 2-3 GCDs, sometimes even 1 GCD under certain conditions, those GCDs not being used for healing is extremely risky, and often detrimental. This was obviously not taken into account when OP made the list.

Your example would be held against WHM where there's a lot of outgoing damage, and they realistically shouldn't be spending those GCDs on CCing. Even that aside, WHM is probably the best at handling those situations where there is a lot of outgoing damage, too. Sacred prism is exclusive to them, their group healing surpasses AST in range and potency (assuming the ast is Diurnal) and is more sustainable than SCH (whom has limited options to begin with due to aetherflow).

If there wasn't that factor of outgoing damage, then WHM is still fully capable of CCing through repose and fluid aura, something that the other two healers lack.

[Cynric]

When you make a tier list, you make it for a specific game mode, as class potential varies based on the nature of the game. For example, a WAR by far the best tank in Solo Queue while PLD exceeds it by leaps and bounds in premade. Most games have similar formats of separate tier lists.

Also, when I said "potential vs effectiveness" what I meant was that it seemed OP's list was developed with a one-sided match in mind, especially in the sleep department. In a perfect condition, a WHM would have to use FOUR GCDs to use up all of the enemy team's purifies. In a game where it is very possible to kill someone in 2-3 GCDs, sometimes even 1 GCD under certain conditions, those GCDs not being used for healing is extremely risky, and often detrimental. This was obviously not taken into account when OP made the list.

If you have any data as to why Warrior is better than paladin then please present it.

This is open for debate and discussion, which has been happening through most of the thread.

As for White mage, I've already posted other things about them but I will say this, if your White mage is the only thing on your team forcing opponents into using purify, then it's a problem with the players not the job. White mage also has more CC than just sleep. I would also like to note that if you are focusing enough burst on one player to kill them that quickly, unless their healer is occupied(and hasn't already CC'd their harasser) then that leaves you open for CC or their target for heals.

As for whether this is for premade or for solo queue. I said in the original post that this is an opinionated and general tier list, I also said to feel free ask questions or what have you. I didn't fully explain anything so there can be discussion. Tier lists are always open for discussion.(Unless the maker isn't interested in making them factual in the first place)

I'm not saying this is my 100% Accurate Tier list no questions asked.

If you have valuable data on anything you suspect I don't mind discussing it with you. Currently not enough data has been presented or certain jobs were agreed upon by others. So if you have anything to contribute in that aspect please do. I'm not infallible and may have missed something while I was bored in class and hoping to have some discussion on the current state of the game and where the jobs fall in to place in PVP.

I did however take potential versus effectiveness in mind as far as I'm aware. I also considered the various tools in relation to the other jobs as well, Burst, Crowd Control, Utility, Sustain DPS after burst, Timing of burst windows, Types of Crowd Control used, whether any jobs can counter another job,(ie, Mnk >SCH,SMN>AST), and how easily they can do this all effectively when played to their maximum.

[Renault]

Well there's only really one mode that's worth talking about at the moment.

How so? Solo Queue and Premade are both worth discussing, I think.

If you have any data as to why Warrior is better than paladin then please present it.

I'm cutting out the rest of your post because we could have an entire thread discussing WHM and it's potential. The bottom line is that it and AST are on pretty equal footing. WHM has it's own win condition, but the AST is far more consistent and durable.

As for why WAR is better than PLD, I meant for Solo Queue. Here's the thing about Solo Queue, you need to throw comps aside and their tier list should display what classes are more likely to CARRY a game, not just perform their role well. As a WAR, you are a beefy DPS. You can pick up medals, and you often go ignored, leaving you free to burst, and BOY can you burst. I've seen good WAR's 100-0 unsuspecting players in seconds with their wombo combo. The thing is with cover, it is rarely used offensively in solo queue and requires coordination, something that shouldn't give it points on a tier list. Tetsudo doesn't close out games or carry, though a well timed one will -prolong- a game (all defensive abilities due this). PLD stun locks and control need to be coordinated with DPS so that your team can turn that into kills. A PLD will not get a solo kill on any player with half a brain. What I'm getting at here is that WAR has the potential to single handedly carry a match, while a PLD does not.

[Cynric]

snip.

We're in the same data center yet I think your matches go very differently than mine do. I've seen cover used effectively both offensively and defensively just fine.

I've also seen Warrior burst shut down by many players with purify leaving a warrior bound and losing out on CD's. I myself have saved healers or even healed myself (using second wind and recouperate) from Warriors burst just fine. I've also seen Paladins effectively using their toolkit to harass and stun multiple players making full use of Shield Bash and amazing use of full swing,spirits, clemency, Hallowed, and veil.

That's the thing about Solo queue. A good player on a good job can kind of carry a bad team, unless the healer is bad or the opponents are better. Solo queue is 100% RNG.

If I were to comment on AST in relative to WHM specifically in solo queue, Nocturnal AST is less reliable in solo queue than WHM. AST can't handle spread damage across the team and keep themselves alive at the same time if the DPS and tanks actually know a little bit of what they're doing.

And if we were talking about solo queue then there's two extremes that need to be addressed.

There are extremely good players, and extremely bad players.

Extremely good players are what this list would follow, Extremely bad players are snowballed by sleep, low levels of burst,any kind of CC, I had a Scholar that only used Physik to heal, I actually restored more health over the match time than they did on my Monk. Then I've had good players who are capable of planning a coordinated burst in the pre match time frame and the match ends very quickly.

You honestly can not really rate Solo queue. That's why I chose instead to rate the jobs generally.

What would you rather have? A Warrior that doesn't know what do when fellcleave fails? Or a Dark Knight that stunned the healer at just the right time? Clearly Dark knight is the worse job here, they just did the right thing at the right time.

If you want to rate the ability to carry in Solo queue based fully on RNG teams without considering balance as a whole that's fine.

But I personally would rather rate balance as a whole, have some discussion on that balance and maybe even possibly have the developer make correct balance decisions based on our feedback.

Edit: Since i'm gong to sleep now I'll leave this here as well.

Your mileage may vary in solo queue from astoundingly bad players no matter what job, to astoundingly good players. I can easily say i've seen huge variations in player tendencies, from people breaking sleep often, to near perfect CC and even limit break coordination, I've seen tanks with 9 stacks go right to the enemy and die , and I've seen players in general with multiple stacks run and hide to time out the match.

Basically what I'm trying to say is no matter what solo queue will always be about the skill of your team versus the skill of your opponents, if everyone is equal skill, tiers come into play and balance is easier shown, If anyone on the team is less than skilled it wasn't a fair match to begin with.

Worry about the player first, then the job, good players will coordinate just fine, there's nothing you can do to carry a bad healer, a tank or dps that doesn't know how to fall back, or a DPS that can hardly DPS and dies all the time,(well maybe you can carry this) that winds up being specific to the job aside from making smart plays and decisions yourself.

[RiceisNice]

How so? Solo Queue and Premade are both worth discussing, I think.

They're both in the same flow of gameplay and the objectives do not change. At that point you're factoring the variable of individual player skill, which really has no place in a tier discussion (since it's based off equal player skill on both sides). If you want to rate them based on player skill variables or ease of use, then there can be another tier list for just that, but that's not what a traditional tier list considers.

So, no class can shut down a good MNK?

Nothing that works exclusively on monk that it doesn't work on other jobs, at least as far as I'm concerned. I would not say a MCH's initial burst is anymore reliable or flexible compared to say, BRD or SMN because of the presiquirtes behind it. They need the 540 potency from BtE, and that usually means going after the MNK or DRG on first contact is not an option because of fetter ward. A scholar's healing ability gets shut down hard by MNK, more so than any other melee job because not only do they boast high damage, but also removing aetherflow (which happens to be their resource for healing)

Drg has the fastest kill time from the 3 Melee if ninja had fetter it would be a tie, I'm a main monk I know what monk is capable of. But I've also know and have had the pleasure of playing against some of the best drgs that aether data center and primal have to offer and a great drg vs a great monk 9 times out of 10 a drg will take the burst battle. One elm punch is great it's a God send. But it's still rng as to which buff you will be stripping. You are also losing out on one of monks biggest damages buffs in Twin snakes. All my opinions are coming from a premade point of view where coordination is key.

In light of the somersault changes, a monk can do well at least 3-4 punches40 seconds. It can screw with a scholar's flow of healing because no aetherflow means no indomitably or lustrate, and a SMN has to juggle between two forms of buffs (aetherflow and aethertrail) and losing either can be a wrench in the spanners. DRG beats out monk in burst, but it's not by a gaping longshot, and they don't have other forms of pressuring comparable to monk. They have self-prerverance through higher hp pools, mitigation and life surge.