Should tanks ask to do big pulls?

[Synrin]

I think that if you have some sort of an issue, like in this case, you should make it plain at the start of the dungeon. I always say 'big pulls please' when I'm healing when I know I can. Sometimes I will ask for not so big pulls if we have two ninjas for example. What is the point of a big pull then when it just becomes a stress for me trying to heal and heal and heal when nothing is dying fast enough? Sometimes people just want to rush it and ignore the fact that there are in fact 3 other people with them who they do need to clear the place. So saying something when the dungeon begins goes a long way. I personally never asked for smaller pulls, but have seen healers who have, and we cleared the dungeons without any trouble.

[Hayward]

Too many of these monkey-see-monkey-do tanks aren't 1) considerate enough to ask if everyone is even up for speedruns (I have no use for them, myself) or 2) aware enough to even acknowledge the fact that not every party CAN speedrun. All they do is read talking points from these know-it-all forums and mindlessly Leeroy their way through dungeons, thinking they're the hotness.

What's worse, however, are healers who encourage this madness simply because they like looking at their own parsers. I have no patience with these DPS-first folks who act like those healing spells are for show (all you Eos-only SCHs know who you are, so don't even try to play it off).

Dungeon parties only work when everyone is on the same page. If they all agree on a quick pace for the run, well and good. If even one isn't with that, it's best to just go at the intended pace and avoid needless squabbling.

[Jamillion]

.

Hey, I know, let's advocate poor gameplay! No. Let's not. Finishing an expert dungeon in 45 minutes is garbage and a waste of time. I expect people to fulfill the minimum requirements of competency in their roles. Speedrunning is literally the most brainless thing you can do at max level. If you're not up to it you're bad, the tanks are ironically the only people that being new should even be taken into consideration for since you have to learn the pulls. For everyone else it's business as usual.

[Xlantaa]

Yes, they should ask, but also, others can ask. I don't do it unless other people ask for it (ask, not demand, is not the same). I assume a normal run "by default", no a rush. What you cannot do is do it because yes, because you want, without know if the other people wants. I'm sick of that unwritten rule of "all dungeons must be rushed".

[LineageRazor]

I generally go with the assumption that the healer can handle the large pulls. On the very, very rare occasion when I'm wrong, we wipe. Eh, no big deal.

There are some healers and tanks for whom a wipe is like the end of the world, or some kind of serious blow to their self-esteem. I just don't understand that attitude myself. A wipe is a minor setback at best; pick yourself up and get back in action.

[Jamillion]

If you're level capped for the content you're in (2.0/3.0 50/60 dungeons) expect big pulls, your toolkit is more than enough to accommodate them. Even at min ilvl the only difference is how much you can DPS during those pulls. Now, this is under the assumption that everyone is actually doing their jobs (DPS pew pewing, tank mitigating) if everyone sucks then it might not go so well but at that point you can safely know the problem wasn't you.

[Malicewolf]

I usually just gauge my parties ability with my first pull. Start with 1 mob, see how they handle it. If it's slow to kill and your hp bar looks like a roller coaster, it's a pretty good sign a big pull should not occur. If they kill mobs quickly and the party isn't 2 melee DPS with little AoE's, I'll pull bigger (or if they simply ask right off bat). However, many tanks simply expect everyone to be ready for big pulls.

Big pulls require the entire party to do their part though. It's not solely on the tank or the healer. I've done big pulls with absolutely fantastic healers before and the issue was they ran out of MP to keep me up (in lower level dungeons, VERY seldom is this a problem in later content). The DPS were at fault here as they decided to very very very slowly kill all the mobs. There is so much room for error to happen on big pulls in general.

If a tank is pulling big, we usually don't hit every target. We're moving quickly to get to the next mob. shield lob 1st enemy to grab hate, maybe get an aoe hit on them all (doesn't always work out perfectly), continue to pull next mob. If an antsy healer heals me before I need it to top me off, then guess who's going to have a majority of that angry mob on their face? I understand that if my hp is super low, then yes, heal me. But if the tanks hp is low and they are still trying to pull the next mob, then they do not know how to handle pulls. That's already a sign that they can't handle the incoming dmg. While pulling, the mobs should really be doing minimal dmg as they have to catch up usually.

There are also antsy DPS. If they decide to hit the target's I've hit with a quick dot, then fine, I can understand that, but there is a chance it'll steal hate from me. I've also seen some DPS just go ham on enemies while I'm still pulling. For that, if I see the healer has stopped, I will as well and just keep the pull at whatever amount it is there (which unfortunately, this happens before I even get to the 2nd mob and means I'm doing 1 mob pull).

If the tank pulls big and it's a wipe (for whatever reason), simply learn from it. If it was due to one little mistake where you accidentally mis-clicked cure II or something, then give it another go and try to better yourself. If it was simply too much incoming dmg for you to handle curing, then simply ask the tank to pull less. As long as you can identify why the wipe occurred, it's fairly easy to figure out a fix. Just avoid the name calling or blame game! That spiral's real quick...

[Keyln]

The amount that a tank pulls depends on the DTPS of the tank and the HPS of the healer. If the HPS > DTPS, then the tank can stay up indefinitely. But, if HPS < DTPS, then the tank will die in HP/(DTPS-HPS) seconds. Now, both the tank and the healer can help mitigate this by lowering the DTPS and raising the HPS so that HPS > DTPS. The problem is that the amount that the tank can pull safely depends largely on the healer and the tank, and in a Duty Finder situation, it's hard to tell right off the bat if the healer can maintain high enough HPS and that the tank can maintain a low enough DTPS to mass pull enemies. The danger with mass pulling, though, is that DTPS has a multiplier effect on the number of enemies. DTPS can be defined as (Enemy DPS - Tank defense)*# of enemies.

In theory, the amount that a tank should pull in a given dungeon depends on three factors.

1) The point where HPS can not be maintained than lower DTPS.
2) There is a sufficiently large enough enemy where AoE(t) becomes longer. AoE(t) depends on the enemy with the largest HP pool, not on the number of enemies.
3) A wall or a boss.

In a duty finder situation where it's impossible to gauge the ability of the healer to maintain high enough HPS to keep HPS > DTPS, it is better to pull small. Wipes cost more time than pulling small.

[odintius]

These should always take place if in a random group in duty finder usually the tank should ask if big pulls are OK that generally means if the healer is OK with it, also make a macro so don't have to type it each time you que. The healer and tank should check each others gear to verify if OK for me if I see a full PvP gear in a pve dungeon I'm hesitant for it . It also good for first pull to be a regular pull to see if your DPS is up to fast kills or not if there struggling with a regular pull a large one isn't making the dungeon run go any faster IMO.

[Derio]

Usually the way I do it is test the healer and dps on the first pull to see if big pulls can be done. Or if a healer isnt dpsing and wants to sit back and heal only then big pull away.