Dark Knight: Still Searching for Your True Identity

[MagiusNecros]

Well it's getting to the point where content is Phys heavy? Go PLD/WAR

Magic heavy? DRK/WAR

Can WAR function just fine? WAR/WAR

And I guess that's the issue. WAR is always valued at all times in any content while in some cases no one wants anything to do with PLD or DRK since their kit doesn't bring anything of value.

With DRK it quite simply wants to be in that MT slot all the time or it's kit gets crippled. Especially in lieu of Reprisal and Bloodprice.

[Shurrikhan]

Well it's getting to the point where content is Phys heavy? Go PLD/WAR

Magic heavy? DRK/WAR

Can WAR function just fine? WAR/WAR

And I guess that's the issue. WAR is always valued at all times in any content while in some cases no one wants anything to do with PLD or DRK since their kit doesn't bring anything of value.

With DRK it quite simply wants to be in that MT slot all the time or it's kit gets crippled. Especially in lieu of Reprisal and Bloodprice.

I feel like DRK could play either side equally if only either WAR's OT damage when supplied (raid contribution irrelevant for this example) with a slashing debuff was equal to or faintly beneath DRK's (and perhaps PLD) despite those lost procs (unless consuming CDs for Abandon stacks and triple-FCs), OR if DRK just had some way to transfer those parry procs (or per-hit mana absorbs) to/from the MT while forced out of that position. That being said, I don't personally think OT and MT are really a thing any longer than mechanics (vuln stacks, etc.) force the MT out and the other in (in any other case, if the OT has CDs up and the MT has exhausted his, he should be [soft-]swapping in), but that potency/utility/generation difference per position really does seem an oversight for DRK (and PLD).

(At the same time though, I still want Defiance to increase ability healing taken, now that we have heal-potency abilities (Tetra, ED, Lustrate) rather than only 100% (Bene) and 25% (old Lustrate) max HP heals--yet another oversight that hasn't been fixed.)

[Tanathya]

What DRK needs is some sort of utility especially, but not only, as an OT, and I would preferably like to see that in the form of higher damage myself, but in the end, any kind of utility would help. I think we all agree on that.

[MiniPrinny]

DRK doesn't need changes. DRK doesn't feel like a DRK. Two different concepts, the two of them being true.

I've always wondered where this ideology came from. The real life origin of Dark Knights, the legendary black knights of medieval Europe, also known now as Knights-errant, were knights who wandered the land defending the people or seeking adventure to prove their chivalric worth or simply to earn the affections of a beloved.

In the series as a whole, named Dark Knights have always straddled the line of heroism and villainy. The very first, Leon (FFII), was a villain for most of his game, while Cecil Harvey (FFIV) redeemed himself. Zeid (FFXI) and Sidurgu (FFXIV) are both flat out heroes in their own right, who, while ruthless, get things done.

The Job doesn't really imply any mechanics either, while yes, they traditionally have cast from HP, Dark Knights in numerous installments use magic outright or forego this mechanic. Additionally, Dark Knights, while typically very offensive, usually buffer their self-consuming ways with high health, defenses, and vampiric attacks, traits we see in FFXIV. Really, Dark Knights here suffer more from oddities in their balancing than their lore or how they feel to play.

[MagiusNecros]

Pretty sure they take the dark magic aspect from the Blackguards and Death Knights of DnD. Maybe some of the other Undead classes.

[Tanathya]

I've always wondered where this ideology came from. The real life origin of Dark Knights, the legendary black knights of medieval Europe, also known now as Knights-errant, were knights who wandered the land defending the people or seeking adventure to prove their chivalric worth or simply to earn the affections of a beloved.

The wikipedia lesson is alright, and I'm not gonna talk about this again, so okay

[Nektulos-Tuor]

I have no interest in "a magic tank". I'd love a tank for whom magic is central, or the gameplay for which is built around internal-external magic interaction. But I've no interest in a niche anti-typal tank. If it's enough bonus mitigation vs. a tank-busting magic boss, it's double DRK, LB be damned. If merely a fair bonus, it's DRK-WAR. PLD hangs itself in the unemployment corner. If DRK's average value is so centered on magic that its physical capabilities must be reduced to compensate, then DRK does the same whenever its unique skills go to waste, especially where mitigation outweighs damage (physically dependent LB/Rep unless Runic becomes a thing).

Indeed. They should not make classes that are more "Physical" or "Magic" based, that is themeless and lazy. Dark Knight also doesn't scream "Magic Tank" due to they're own lore. They should be more physical then magical based with their own lore.

Dread Spikes as a tank stance for example, reflecting damage instead of preventing it. It just sounds lazy. Dark Mind for example, sounds like a renamed "Samurai" skill, because Samurai might be able to tap into their ancestors or something to prevent magical damage.

Why do I like Warrior?
It has its own playstyle, its not limited to being Physical or Magical. It has its own themed abilities, it plays differently then Paladin. Just like DPS. Imagine if DPS had a skill that did 'triple damage' on some encounters and was far ahead the other DPS?

[shao32]

Actually Warrior already has it in Infuriate.

Which Dark Arts is a MP costing Infuriate on a 5 second recast that enhances certain actions that can be considered on par or related to IB/FC and Cyclone/Decimate.

So basically not original at all. DRK clearly isn't a DRK unless you consider a mish mash of PLD and WAR a DRK then fine. Until then it gets the moniker of Magic Fencer or Mystic Knight. Fancy effects and a hybrid kit of PLD/WAR does not make a new tank class.

GRUMP GRUMP

same 3 combos in all tanks

PLD, active mitigation, all they have no exception and nothing especial.

WAR, deliverance defiance system, they build 1-5 stacks of wrath-abandon to use some skills at 5 stacks, every stack give certains bonus, more similar is the monk now with gl and some skills.

DRK darkside system, permanent buff how unlock certain skills and increse you damage dealt to 15%, reduce you mp, with darkside up you can use dark art for aument or add addicional effect to certain skills.

PLD and DRK shadow skin, shadow wall,, dark dance and reprisal are the equivalent to rampath, sentinel, bulwark and shield swipe.

DRK also have salted earth, plunge, sole survivor, dark mind,abysal drain, blood weapon and blood price none of the other 2 have skills like that, and no mercy stroke is no similar, the concept is the same but works diferent.

i dont know you but is pretty diferent to me, original? yes or not i dont care, unique compared to the other 2 yes, is more close to paladin, for those 4 skills but the combos work diferent.

[MiniPrinny]

DRK clearly isn't a DRK unless you consider a mish mash of PLD and WAR a DRK then fine. Until then it gets the moniker of Magic Fencer or Mystic Knight. Fancy effects and a hybrid kit of PLD/WAR does not make a new tank class.

GRUMP GRUMP

I feel that as far as basic weapon skills are concerned, there isn't a lot to build upon. Most of the weapon skills we should consider as various martial techniques used by most practitioners of the Job. Just for the tanks, there's an incredibly limited pool of prior abilities, even including FFXI. Because of this, we're left with different iconic abilities and traits.

For Paladins, these iconic abilities and traits are simple to list: holy-aspected attacks, healing, using a shield, minor curative magic, and the recurring ability, Cover.

For Warriors, these iconic abilities are more difficult, since Warrior draws from its namesake, as well as Fighter and Berserker. So for Warrior, their abilities and traits are: High damage output, high durability, stat reduction, favoring two-handed weaponry, and the recurring status ailment, Berserk.

Now, for Dark Knight, things get interesting. Dark Knight is known for a few abilities and traits, the most common being sacrificing their own health for additional damage. Yoshida's team, very wisely, instead rewrote this as Dark Knights sacrificing their aether for additional damage and effects. It is important to remember that lore-wise, MP is more than just a stat, it's a representation of your character's available aether to weave magic, and at low levels of it, your character is actually mentally and physically exhausted.

Anyway, moving on, Dark Knights are also known for just two other abilities, sapping the enemy's health (Souleater) or MP (Syphon Strike), and the ability known as "Souleater" in most games. Here, it's name is Dark Passenger and Dark Arts. Dark Passenger is its iconic effect, a wave of dark-aspected damage that hits the enemy team for high damage (150-250 potency on an off-GCD is rather high for an AoE). Meanwhile, Dark Arts is the other half of Souleater, the massive cutting of one's HP, or in this case, MP to deal additional damage or enhance other abilities.

The only trait that Dark Knights are missing, and it is a rather recent one, is their ability to syphon stats from their enemies beyond just HP and MP. Part of why I think Delirium increasing magic vulnerability combined with making Dark Knights purely magical in damage-type would be beneficial. It'd help solidify the Job's identity and fix some of the gameplay problems.

[MagiusNecros]

Most of DRK's "unique skills" can't utilize Dark Arts. Shadow Wall weaker then Sentinel, PLD can Parry and Block and also get a auto block every 30 seconds. Shield Swipe pacifies, Reprisal is Warrior's Storm's Path off a Parry.

Some of the DRK's skills are indeed unique but for the most part the job feels more of a hybrid between the two and offers little utility in way of OT whereas the other 2 most definitely can. WAR with Storm's and PLD with Clemency and Divine Veil or even HG+Cover.

@MiniPrinny: Lore reasons are just excuses IMO, besides that I feel DRK's need to buff their stats at least in LD/WD to mirror casting Doom on themselves. LD/WD as it is now just seems completely lackluster and does not synergize with the user but more with the healer. Whereas the DRK was once self sufficient the DRK now has to rely on his allies more then the other 2 Tanks do.