Rework ilvl?

[AsteriaStarfall]

I mentioned this a year ago. Even back then the ilevel trend seemed ridiculous. The purpose of ilevels, though, is to quickly assess a player's gear compatibility with a specific instance. it has to do with how porrly designed the game is in general. /shrug

Should probably take a moment to download and try WoW and then come back and explain to us what the problem with ilvl is. When I left WoW ilvl was around 700

[Lemuria]

Should probably take a moment to download and try WoW and then come back and explain to us what the problem with ilvl is. When I left WoW ilvl was around 700

I dare say you've answered your own question. If we wanted to play WoW, we'd play WoW. Square-Enix doesn't need to copy everything they do.

Those saying there wasn't much of a stat jump haven't been paying attention in class. A lot of my stats are essentially double that of my level 50 item level 130 set pre-Heavensward. My HP is slightly above that (from 6k to 14k). Granted it may not be quite as dramatic as WoW, but that's still a very significant increase overall in a relatively short time.

My biggest issue with the game isn't the fact that we have ever-increasing item levels, but rather that there's no point to having anything except those high item levels. Anything below is sub-par and rendered obsolete when the next patch arrives. This 'throwaway' gameplay design means no one really wants to do older dungeons and means despite the length of the game, your gameplay is confined to a narrow band.

This issue is compounded when you consider how much easier it is to get this older equipment with each major update. This means the lower item level characters catch up fast, and make the older dungeons and content obsolete that much faster. Anyone who takes off their rose-tinted glasses for more than 2 seconds can see this is a bad state of affairs for any game, and something needs to be done sooner rather than later.

I already know some of my friends who have left the game because they were bored of the same treadmill. Gameplay for an MMO should be more dynamic, not a linear experience, but they've chosen to ignore the lessons learned by FFXI (still going to this day) and focus on the other side of the pond. SE should stick to what they do best and deliver an experience with as much horizontal gameplay as there is vertical. At present, this is looking like the FF13 of MMO's. Flashy and interesting, but exceptionally linear.

[Zantitrach]

Gameplay for an MMO should be more dynamic, not a linear experience, but they've chosen to ignore the lessons learned by FFXI (still going to this day) and focus on the other side of the pond..

Isn't WoW much more successful than XI?

[Ibi]

Isn't WoW much more successful than XI?

By at least an order of magnitude.

Obviously it's not fair to attribute all of that to things like horizontal gear progression vs vertical gear progression. FFXI was barely (if at all) marketed in the West, compared to the marketing of WoW which has been almost suffocating at times. FFXI was essentially impossible to progress in solo, compared to WoW where you've always been able to go all the way to the level cap without ever interacting with another person if you choose. FFXI was very slow progress even when you were interacting with other people, and that progress was 95%+ though grinding away levels on the same mobs for hours at a time.

But it's also not difficult to see why a vertical progression model attracts players better than a horizontal progression model (which appeals to a much more niche population). I don't think it's much of a leap to say that most players of RPGs want to see their character get markedly stronger over time, and to find that the things that used to be challenging, as they increase in strength, become easier and easier until they're eventually trivial.

It's certainly possible that FFXIV lets us get too much stronger too fast, but if they slow it down it greatly restricts what they can do with new content. It's a tough balance to strike.

[Felis]

But it's also not difficult to see why a vertical progression model attracts players better than a horizontal progression model (which appeals to a much more niche population). I don't think it's much of a leap to say that most players of RPGs want to see their character get markedly stronger over time, and to find that the things that used to be challenging, as they increase in strength, become easier and easier until they're eventually trivial.

Exactly.
And it is not something new in RPGs. Since the first RPGs on Nintendo you find stronger equip in the next town than in the previous town. Always you reached the next town in the story it was time to buy new equip.

[Zantitrach]

By at least an order of magnitude.
....
FFXI was essentially impossible to progress in solo, compared to WoW where you've always been able to go all the way to the level cap without ever interacting with another person if you choose. FFXI was very slow progress even when you were interacting with other people, and that progress was 95%+ though grinding away levels on the same mobs for hours at a time.
....
It's certainly possible that FFXIV lets us get too much stronger too fast, but if they slow it down it greatly restricts what they can do with new content. It's a tough balance to strike.

That was my whole point. The person I quoted was arguing in favor of FFXI style MMO and saying SE should focus less on...

SE should stick to what they do best and deliver an experience with as much horizontal gameplay as there is vertical.

My biggest issue with the game isn't the fact that we have ever-increasing item levels, but rather that there's no point to having anything except those high item levels.

I already know some of my friends who have left the game because they were bored of the same treadmill.

This is a minority opinion. The world has already voted for what they want (with their wallets) and WoW was a cash cow while FFXI, not so much. Can't Fault SE for emulating and tweaking the model (which I think they've done well). I assume this person wanted Kraken Clubs and various amazing items that you could get and hold onto for a long time. Unfortunately it just wasn't as popular as new gear every so often, despite being a cool concept.

I personally think XIV has found a lovely middle ground between XI and WoW, and that's why its doing so well in MMO's when so many others are being created and closed (since 2.0 obviously).

[Ibi]

That was my whole point. The person I quoted was arguing in favor of FFXI style MMO and saying SE should focus less on...

Right, I was agreeing with you and elaborating.

I personally think XIV has found a lovely middle ground between XI and WoW, and that's why its doing so well in MMO's when so many others are being created and closed (since 2.0 obviously).

It's got a solid foundation, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to do some building on that foundation.

To bring it back to the thread topic, I don't see a problem with item level in principle, but it does make things very uninteresting that the only things about any given piece of gear that matter to any significant degree are 1) the item level and 2) how much accuracy it has.

Vitality and primary stats simply increase predictably with item level and secondary stats other than accuracy (and possibly spell speed for black mage) contribute so little to your output that the choices between barely make any difference.

[Zantitrach]

Right, I was agreeing with you and elaborating.

Apologies, couldn't quite tell.