Low level tanks (pre-tank stance) have a very hard time holding threat after the nerf

[Rongway]

edit incoming

Oversimplification

This is a gross oversimplification. Let's take a full set of Lv30 PLD gear.

Pre-patch, the STR set would have been 36 AP and the VIT set would have been 26 AP.
Post-patch, STR set is 27.45 AP and VIT set is 27.45 AP.

Here's the thing. The STR gear isn't a tank gear set, despite what popular opinion may have been, and it's not SE's responsibility to support or even consider it.
For any tank who was wearing actual tank gear, this is a buff.


But the worst part of your argument is that "low level tanks have all just lost a significant chunk of their damage output". Low level tanks were probably not running around in level-appropriate gear, let alone level-appropriate STR gear, and any PLD who was running around in STR gear, without Shield Oath, was pissing off healers because he was too much work to heal. Besides the obvious part where this is just asking for a bad time, it was causing the healers to generate more hate because the PLD in question couldn't be bothered to gear properly.


Tanks who were actually wearing tank gear got a buff, and anyone who's still having problems with hate generation are

• undergeared, requiring healers to heal more
• not mitigating enough damage, requiring healers to heal more

There is also the possibility of

• the DDs don't know what they're doing, and distributing their damage output inappropriately
• the healer doesn't know what he's doing, and healing far too liberally

though neither of these is a problem with tank hate generation; they are strictly skill-based problems that you'll run into regardless of how godly one might think he is with a shield/axe/BFS; and neither is as likely as the scenarios in the first bullet list, especially with the rate at which people rush through the lower level content these days, neglecting to take the time to keep their gear current.

[Brian_]

@60 in very good gear it's still hard to hold enmity against elite DPS without your tank stance, especially on cold pick-ups.

That's the situation you're in as a PLD before ShO.

The reality is they nerfed tank damage and buffed our tank stance enmity to compensate. That doesn't help when you don't have your tank stance yet. They also buffed PLD's SB enmity modifier but that's probably not enough given that many low-level PLDs were already struggling before the changes.

[Reinha]

All left side gear has both VIT and STR at almost equal amounts. Lets have a look at dungeon gear between levels 15 and 18:

Plundered Celata: 2 STR 2 VIT
Plundered Cuirass: 3 STR 3 VIT
Plundered Gauntlets: 2 STR 2 VIT
Plundered Plate Belt: 1 STR 1 VIT
Plundered Trousers: 3 STR 3 VIT
Plundered Sabatons: 2 STR 2 VIT
Plundered Ear Cuffs: 1 STR
Aetherial Brass Gorget: 1 STR
Aetherial Brass Ring: 1 STR
Aetherial Brass Ring: 1 STR
Aetherial Hard Leather Wristbands: 1 STR

AP before patch 3.2 (from STR): 18 * 1.00 = 18
AP after patch 3.2 (from STR and VIT): 31 * 0.45 = 13.95

If we take into account the stupidly OP low level ring which didn't exist before patch 3.2:
Brand-new Ring: 3 STR 3 VIT
Take off one Brass Ring: -1 STR
AP after patch (from STR and VIT): 36 * 0.45 = 16.2

16.2AP / 18AP = 0.90 = 90%, so there has been a drop of 10% attack power for tanks at this gear level when no food is being used.

I cba to write all the gear down but at level 26 using the best tank gear from dungeons the loss of AP has been 19% when the Brand-new ring is used, or 16% with the ring and VIT food. I used Garland Tools to find the best low level gear.

Now lets look at 3.2 patch notes:

Savage Blade The amount of enmity generated has been increased.
Shield Oath Damage penalty has been reduced from 20% to 15%. The amount of enmity generated has been increased.
Defiance The amount of enmity generated has been increased.
Grit The amount of enmity generated has been increased.

It's a reasonable expectation that since tank stances were buffed this patch the buff would make up for the AP loss, because why else would SE suddenly buff the tank stances? WAR and DRK might struggle below level 30 but would feel no different from level 30 onward (which is where DRK starts from anyway). Paladins get their tank stance later, but they get Savage Blade before their first dungeon. The SB buff likely makes up for some of the AP loss for those players who know how to cycle targets, but it would have to be a pretty big buff to make up for the stat change all the way to level 40. The effect of the Brand-new Ring diminishes the more levels you gain, so for PLD the AP and threat loss (compared to before patch) could be as high as 25% before they get their tank stance.

The only fix needed, imo, is to swap Shield and Sword Oath levels so Paladins are in line with the other tanks. This needed to be done a long time ago though.

EDIT. Fixed the mistakes in the bolded parts (old values were 21% and 19%) and clarified that the 10% AP drop is without VIT food.

[Zari]

What part of this is hard to understand?

1. It is only a real problem for them when they are undergeared or unskilled as a tank yet. Before and now.

2. If the problem was always there, asking for the old damage back will do almost NOTHING TO HELP.
It has always been an issue for new/undergeared tanks at low levels, and bringing the old damage back will do almost nothing to help them at all. THAT is my point

[Kabooa]

Hypothetically, if you are correct and it's always been a problem with low level tanks holding threat, you are then admitting there is a problem with low level tanks ability to hold threat.

But here's the reality:

Before Patch:

4 STR = 4 AP

After Patch:


4 STR = 1.76 AP

2 STR + 2 VIT = 1.76 AP

4 VIT = 1.76 AP

4 vit + 4 str (the spread you'll find on those items) : 3.52 AP.

Oh, look at that. It seems like left side attack power is roughly the same.

[Noxifer]

4 vit + 4 str (the spread you'll find on those items) : 3.52 AP.

Oh, look at that. It seems like left side attack power is roughly the same.

Except it's not until level 28/29 that you start to get actual tank accessories. Before then, the supposed tank accessories (actually one bracelet only, the coral armillae) are worse* than the regular DoW accessories (+1 Vit, +1 (2) Crit vs +1 Str, +1 Dex, +1 (2) Acc). It's also at lvl19 instead of lvl17, meaning most tanks will likely already have the hard leather wristband and see little reason to change. (Experienced players because it doesn't really matter whether you get +1 Vit or +1 Str, and inexperienced players because clearly three different stats is better than just two.)

And no matter how you look at it, where you earlier had
4 STR + 4 VIT = 4 AP
you now have
4 STR + 4 VIT = 3.52 AP
It's not much of a difference, but it is a lower number. Combined with mostly STR accessories, low level tanks will definitely experience lower damage output, which means lower aggro generation. After all, most of the tanks' right side will follow the "4 STR + 0 VIT" formula instead of "4 STR + 4 VIT".

It seems to me that the increase in tank stance enmity generation was to offset the generally lower DPS output (unless you were running full VIT before the change and thus got slightly higher damage). But considering lower gear (pre 30) lacks in VIT accessories, those tanks will pretty much only see lower damage output. And they don't have tank stances to make up for that.

So I slightly agree with the OP. While it's not entirely gamebreaking, and it is possible to hold aggro (most of the time) against synched DPS -- especially if you have experience already from other tank classes or the same class on another character -- it is harder now than it was before. Pre-30, that is. I wish SE had taken that into consideration when making this change.


*) worse in that at those levels, Accuracy is kinda important.

[Kumori_Kumo]

I was fully behind the change, and yet as I level Paladin, I can't help but notice that, yeah, it is kinda hard to hold stuff. I mean I'm doing what I can and it's not a disaster most often but it's pretty noticeable. I have HQ gear in every slot and a lot of tanking experience, but it's a little hectic nonetheless, so I can see where some people who are just getting into tanking might actually be running into problems. And that really is the larger point, isn't it? With how rough it is to get a tank, we don't wanna discourage people from doing it by making the early part hard.

[The_NPC]

gona chime in here & state that just yesterday me and a friend did leveling roullete (he was lv60 PLD tank, didn't need the xp) & we got Quarn NM now no Shield oath allowed was his biggest problem arrgo wise but even when me (MCH) & the other DPS (SMN) were attacking the same mob it took everything he had (even FoF) to keep us at yellow status on arrgo (if I also remeber right that dungeon doesn't allow Rage of Halone) so yes its hard even when LV/gear synced but it ant impossible... it just gets worse if u'r dps attack diff targets & u'r low/under geared

Will state thou that if my memory serves me right I had just as much trouble in the same dungeon back in 2.1 lving my PLD (1st class) & I made sure I was geared to my lv in vit rightside for survival, so can't say its affected low lv tanking much it just mostly affected low low STR tanking which seams stupid to do at pre-50 back then anyway.

[Sanumas]

After reading this I thought I'd be going through hell level my GLD/PLD the last 2 days. Threat has literally been a non-issue whatsoever and I'm still under 40 and don't have Shield Oath. This didn't affect low level tanking at all, assuming you actually know how to tank.

[Gameplayzero]

After reading this I thought I'd be going through hell level my GLD/PLD the last 2 days. Threat has literally been a non-issue whatsoever and I'm still under 40 and don't have Shield Oath. This didn't affect low level tanking at all, assuming you actually know how to tank.

depends on the gear of everyone else honestly. If you have a high lvl'd dps who actually knows what they are doing then yeah its gonna suck even if you know how to tank. Doesn't mean much if around same lvl.