MCH PVP Nerfs!? Really!?

[fm_fenrir]

Really? God I hope that's not what he was refering to, that's not even a 30% difference, more like 10%, and even then, WAR has the highest base HP in the game, so that isn't even remotely a "Nerf" That's putting bubble wrap around a knife and saying it kills people less. Sure you can't cut em, but you can definitely still stab em.

The reason you feel it's less is because WAR has the best burst potential, so you die slightly slower than you used to if an Infuriated Berserk WAR blasts you with back to back FCs while Holmganging you in place (but you will still die). If you look at the average, WAR is still 30% lower than it used to be in 3.15, including burst phases.

WAR doesn't have the highest base HP in Deliverance, either; they only have more HP in Defiance, which takes Fell Cleave off the table and forces them to use Inner Beast (or sacrifice that HP cushion to switch back to Deliverance).

[Houston009]

Really? God I hope that's not what he was refering to, that's not even a 30% difference, more like 10%, and even then, WAR has the highest base HP in the game, so that isn't even remotely a "Nerf" That's putting bubble wrap around a knife and saying it kills people less. Sure you can't cut em, but you can definitely still stab em.

@Myon88 Agreed, if it's something light like that, I would be fine with it, as long as it doesn't effect the kit over all, PVP perks, alright tweek em. But if they pull a "SMN Style" Castration of MCH, I'm just going to lose it.

Let's see. 15-20% damage lost from VIT changes alone, on top of Tanks losing the additional damage they gained in pvp, which was 10%.

[Myon88]

If the nerf is mild I think it would be.. fair. I'm guessing Between-the-Eyes is going to be hit with a potency nerf or cooldown increase, maybe 150 (180 with trait) to 120 (150 with trait)? That's what I would do anyway.

We have pretty ridiculous burst when cooldowns are up - and consistent burst too now that GB removes the close ranged portion of the damage penalty.

That said it's a very fine line because burst is the only thing MCH has going for it in PvP. Unlike BRDs and SMNs who are far superior multidotters, or melee who can just sit on a target, our sustained DPS and ability to pressure outside of cooldowns in PvP is downright pitiful and probably the worst in the game barring the tanks and healers. You will not even be able to harass casters due to the 15% of HP interrupt threshold.

[RiceisNice]

I'm more surprised they're only addressing mch burst, because it's around the same line with brd and even melee (except they need a debuff prior). Brd burst doesn't trail that far behind and there's less counter plays to it, on top of that they have the new paeon which is pretty damn powerful against certain teams.

[Lilith_Merquise]

I'm more surprised they're only addressing mch burst, because it's around the same line with brd and even melee (except they need a debuff prior). Brd burst doesn't trail that far behind and there's less counter plays to it, on top of that they have the new paeon which is pretty damn powerful against certain teams.

Right!? That's what I"m thinking, idk, this just seems like SE is listening to a handful of whiners that play the ultimate DPS, and don't want to be killed from range. I haven't even heard nearly the outcry on MCH like there was on WAR/SMN to justify any changes at all. It's strong no doubt, but no more strong then MNK or DRG, and arguably equal to lesser strong then those key classes.

I just love that MCH is more of a "Support DPS" class because I can bind people who are annoying, slow weak people trying to run away, and 2 forms of stun. Honestly MCH is the only DPS class in the game that doesn't get a form of healing (which is why at every end match it's literally 0 HP recovered). Making MCH the only class that has to go all out and put it's faith that the healer is worth a damn over any other class (it ain't much, but second wind can make the difference between a 5 HP save with a Cure II, or dead.)

[LunarEmerald]

I saw this coming

Between the Eyes is far more powerful than Farshot.

[RiceisNice]

I saw this coming

Between the Eyes is far more powerful than Farshot.

While I do agree farshot needs some adjustment in light of the ranged changes (it essentially discourages you from attacking at max range), when you 1:1 their overall burst, BtE is really unconventional compared to a barrage empyreal, as well as ricochet with it's secondary damage. On top of that, BRD arguably has better healer pressure and more sustained damage due to DoTs and bloodletter reset, while MCH's damage outside of their burst is laughable and any other utility outside of that is really bleh (no warden's paeon, no self heals)

[Shurrikhan]

BRD arguably has better healer pressure and more sustained damage due to DoTs and bloodletter reset, while MCH's damage outside of their burst is laughable and any other utility outside of that is really bleh (no warden's paeon, no self heals)

It almost seems like they ought to just try to decrease the ammo/proc gap a bit. Trim from burst, and add a bit to non-burst. That, or they really shouldn't be touching MCH much at all, imo; work on improving Bard's burst slightly instead to bring it more in line with MCH and other killers, such as by increasing Far Shot's damage, reducing its CD, and/or giving it some bonus effect, maybe turning it into a 30s skill that allows you to ignore the range penalty briefly while increasing range per target hit scored during the duration, etc. Or change it out completely. Or any other way of giving Bards something more than just EmpBar burst.

[RiceisNice]

It almost seems like they ought to just try to decrease the ammo/proc gap a bit. Trim from burst, and add a bit to non-burst. That, or they really shouldn't be touching MCH much at all, imo; work on improving Bard's burst slightly instead to bring it more in line with MCH and other killers, such as by increasing Far Shot's damage, reducing its CD, and/or giving it some bonus effect, maybe turning it into a 30s skill that allows you to ignore the range penalty briefly while increasing range per target hit scored during the duration, etc. Or change it out completely. Or any other way of giving Bards something more than just EmpBar burst.

Honestly I feel they're both about right, with the exception of far shot. You can't really look at MCH's burst solely from the value because two of their skills require special circumstances to deal it's full damage, a specific debuff (and supressive/stun gun is unreliable for this application), and for the target to be alone (this includes egis and fairies, otherwise ricochet goes from a 300 potency to 200 or lower). All things considered, BRD doesn't necessarily need a stronger burst when their only setback is having 2 DoTs on a single target, on top of that they already have paeon's which is invaluable in a PvP setting. Farshot definitely needs to be changed though,it's gimmick is entirely moot if they did away with range penalty (which honestly shouldn't even exist anymore if their damage output is balanced around using WM and GB, and especially when the primary advantage of free-moving weaponskill is rendered moot)

[Lilith_Merquise]

Ya Rice has the right of it, BRD has a lot in it's tool kit for burst, and Blood Letter wasn't even mentioned with its ability to PRoc. A lot of times, as a MCH you have your big wombo Combo, then if you don't get a kill.... welp start kiting or annoying the healer, because you're really not putting out much for a good while, as opposed to BRD that can keep putting it down much more. I will say that BRD doesn't have the utility of MCH and may be a bit lesser than, but not by much to where MCH should get nerfed, it's to where BRD should get buffed. MCH feels like where ranged classes SHOULD BE in PVP. We get a PVP ability to heal, but that's it, an I guess you can put up parry for w/e that means to help defensively but for the most part, you are 100% committed to DPS and the lowest capability defensively of all DPS classes.

Let's see. 15-20% damage lost from VIT changes alone, on top of Tanks losing the additional damage they gained in pvp, which was 10%.

Also I don't understand this, how did they lose 10%, 15-20% I can get, but even then it's a gross exaggeration to me because it's really more like 10%. Not to mention you're trading off 10% DPS for a very large chunk of HP that makes you damn near unkillable. I've seen a WAR put down a double Berserk Fell Cleave and drop a healer, hell it's actually the strat most WAR's employee, is to just cleave the healer own quickly to win. I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this, and frankly WAR could use a bit of a nerf in capability to be brought more in line with DRK but still above PLD's DPS.