So, instead of people fighting about STR, why are they fighting about VIT?

[zaviermhigo]

snip.

A tank is a tank, and a dps is a dps, most of their abilities should be about maintaining hate, making sure their own faced isn't ripped off, and making sure other people's faces aren't getting ripped off. Literally next to no reason for a tank to even dps. I've played lots of mmos, the ones where tanks do crazy dps, are usually trash games that are badly balanced and barely fun. The games with an actual holy trinity (tanks tank, healers heal, dds dps) tend to be more thought out when it comes to DOTs/enfeebles, CCs, etc. Which is probably why XIV feels so hallow, it has the holy trinity but it doesn't make use of the things that make the holy trinity interesting as much (CC, enfeebles, we have dots, we have some cc but they are weak).

DPS shouldn't be an end all be all mechanic for all three jobs, instead there should be interesting things in every job that give it utility instead of dps, you see this is some jobs, AST dps isn't the best due to its card utility, brd can be the same outside of WM, but it needs to be taken further, so tanks don't just feel like a meatshield, and WAR doesn't just feel like a dps with lots of HP. Tank utility in XIV needs to be increased, DRK and PLD should have more increased utility for a trade off of lessened dps. SE just didn't think about the new meta all that much.

[FallenWings]

Unfortunately you are in the minority with that line of thought. You and many people make claim to this 'trinity' but we all know its not even that since there isn't, and mostly won't be an equal distribution of people in roles. 1 Tank 1 Healer 2 DPS? Ridiculous queue times for DPS?

DPS is popular for a good reason. Tanking and Healing alone is simply not fun for the vast majority of people. It simply does not get the job done, it only enables the possibility. I can tank or heal as hard as I can, but that won't mean the fight will be completed.

I don't mind for making the tanking and healing roles more complicated with additional jobs of CC and whatnot, but taking away all of our meaningful contribution for it will never be a worthwhile trade.

It's really best to not see the roles in such a narrow minded view of just 'tank' and just 'healer'.

A tank class is your frontline fighter who gathers the attention of his enemies, protects his allies by mitigating the pain and removing the threat themselves. DPS are dirty ninjas who use underhanded means to fight. Cowards~!

Also your obvious immersion breaking of GREATaxes and GREATswords doing 'nothing' against a foe.
I hit dragon with giant phantom sawblades of DEATH! (Fell Cleave)
Dragon doesn't flinch.

Dirty Ninja hits dragon with the hilt of his dagger.
Dragon explodes.


Wat.

[Falar]

A tank is a tank, and a dps is a dps, most of their abilities should be about maintaining hate, making sure their own faced isn't ripped off, and making sure other people's faces aren't getting ripped off. Literally next to no reason for a tank to even dps. The games with an actual holy trinity (tanks tank, healers heal, dds dps) tend to be more thought out when it comes to DOTs/enfeebles, CCs, etc. Which is probably why XIV feels so hallow, it has the holy trinity but it doesn't make use of the things that make the holy trinity interesting as much (CC, enfeebles, we have dots, we have some cc but they are weak).

The awful "trinity system" is garbage and I can't believe people still want to see it in game after game.

This is Final Fantasy, it just happens to be one they made into an MMO. Anything they can do to make it not just another generic MMORPG with the same tired, boring "trinity system" is a good thing.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

A tank is a tank, and a dps is a dps, most of their abilities should be about maintaining hate, making sure their own faced isn't ripped off, and making sure other people's faces aren't getting ripped off. Literally next to no reason for a tank to even dps. I've played lots of mmos, the ones where tanks do crazy dps, are usually trash games that are badly balanced and barely fun.

This is a Tank. Anyways, joking aside.

Tanks duty is to also deal enough damage to hold hate in the first place. Its not about just taunts, and just 'holding aggro'. You have to be the scariest biggest most intimidating dude in the fight. You have to be able to deal damage to do that. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. If tanks were giant walls with two shields, enemies would just walk around them and kill the real threats. "Taunts" are a poor concept, and in a good game would only work on humanoid enemies who can understand your language.

Anyways, DPS (some) should do even less damage then Tanks. However what they should have to compensate is utility and debuffs. Instead of doing high amounts of damage they should be making everyone else be able to deal more damage, like knowing where to hit an enemy in their weak points to lower their armor a lot so that everyone can hurt them easier.

That is how a good game is balanced. Just labeling classes as "Tank" "DPS" "Heal" is what I consider one of the laziest way to do it.

A Tanks weakness:
- Slower, needs support to buff his attack speed or haste.
- Doesn't make enemy take more damage, lack of debuffs and buffs.

DPS also have things like interrupts. In a good game, monsters have to be pulled slowly and with coordination, they are not just /giant/ health pools. Mages have to sleep and cc, scouts have to "interrupt" healing monsters or nobody can deal damage.

Basicly, they bread and buttered the roles so much people forgot how things used to be.


Roles:

Fighter:
High Single Target Physical Damage
High Melee AOE Damage
High Armor

These are warriors who usually fight from the front, through intimidation they lead charge into battle and attract the attention of enemies.



Scout:
High Single Target Physical Damage (yes, same as tanks.)
Med Armor
Poison (Weaken monsters to make them deal less damage.)
Physical Debuffs (Armorbreak; for example a Swashbuckler throwing a bomb at an armored golem to smash some of its armor.)
Interruption

((Some subclasses of scout sacrifice ST damage to gain AOE/even AOE interrupts and physical debuffs. Some are focused on poison.)))

These classes focus on interrupting enemy mages and healers. They also debuff the armor of classes to make all physical classes deal more damage. You can't even kill an enemy if there is no scout constantly interrupting the casting of healers or debuffing their healing.


Mage:
High Magical Single Target Damage
High Magical AOE Damage
Low Armor
Cures (Cures Arcane Effects.)
Buffs party against Arcane damage.

Ect ect ect, I can go on and on.

You can literally make roles and give them TONS of variety. However, it went the easy route. However to say that the games where X is X are bad, no. That is just idiotic :P

[DGladius]

Which type of dummy ?

It doesn't matter what dummy it is. The damage done will be the same.

[Sarcatica]

At ilevel 223 with i230 weapon.. What is the above average dps for the 3 tanks?

Let's just say that if you can clear A8S SSS reliably in i220-i225 (with or without i230 weapon), you are capable on doing 50%++ in fflogs which is already way better than average.

[Janhyua]

Let's just say that if you can clear A8S SSS reliably in i220-i225 (with or without i230 weapon), you are capable on doing 50%++ in fflogs which is already way better than average.

Hmmm I barely made it on my warrior i223 on a8s sss, my timer left 2 secs

My a5s is 35 Sec timer left but I know I could do better

[Kingsnake661]

Yeah, but then what's the reason of the STR accessories? It makes them obsolete, kinda how VIT was obsolete before 3.2 due to the DPS Checks required. This kinda needs to be addressed since they just flipped the table on it.

The way it was addressed, PLD lacked in damage numbers severely compared to the other tanks(which was an issue). VIT now being a part of the damage formula for tanks fixed the issue, at least. The problem I have is that STR should equal more damage output, and VIT would be more health like it was before; but it's not the case in 3.22. My suggestion would be VIT+STR would still be the equation, but STR dealing out a bit more damage would make a lot more sense to me.

...? So... Dragoons and Monks don't use str acc's anymore? Or they just aren't important enough to recognize? LOL ;^)