tanks not using cooldowns?

[RecklessLion]

Ummmm for the most part defensive buffs are not needed unless a large pull is going on then yeah ok you got a point. Let's be real and honest with ourselves here. Nobody is really playing at their best in a DF low to mid difficulty dungeon. The way we're geared at this point it's expected. And when you're in higher content the challenging one of course it's used when needed. But really use cd on trash mobs just because.....are you saying this for the sake of dps or trying not to max out health? From what I see when I play I don't pop CD unless it's a big pull and when I'm not using cd my healers still manage to play in their dps stances. Like holy shit man cant even enjoy a game without hearing critiques on nonsense.

[Jpec07]

Yes it was. Even to the point where Whiteroom stated that Devs meant for dungeons to be speed runs, "when the games meta is speedrun everything".

I'm sure the Devs will be happy to know they did not design Dungeons to be challenging to casual and low level players.

Did you read the rest of my post, or did you just assume I was agreeing wholesale?

The point of the discussion that you're deviating from is the usefulness of CC as relates mitigation - which is an entirely separate thread than the original point of this thread.

CC is viable for extremely coordinated groups, but this game is not structured in a way where it can be used to save a group from wiping.

[Gameplayzero]

Ummmm for the most part defensive buffs are not needed unless a large pull is going on then yeah ok you got a point. Let's be real and honest with ourselves here. Nobody is really playing at their best in a DF low to mid difficulty dungeon. The way we're geared at this point it's expected. And when you're in higher content the challenging one of course it's used when needed. But really use cd on trash mobs just because.....are you saying this for the sake of dps or trying not to max out health? From what I see when I play I don't pop CD unless it's a big pull and when I'm not using cd my healers still manage to play in their dps stances. Like holy shit man cant even enjoy a game without hearing critiques on nonsense.

Without sounding rude, all of what you said is addressed in this thread and has been answered already.

[Red_Wolf]

Did you read the rest of my post, or did you just assume I was agreeing wholesale?

The point of the discussion that you're deviating from is the usefulness of CC as relates mitigation - which is an entirely separate thread than the original point of this thread.

CC is viable for extremely coordinated groups, but this game is not structured in a way where it can be used to save a group from wiping.

Yes, I did. The two of you are arguing that CC isn't useful for one specific type of group (end-game players). I'll admit this is probably the largest group in the game for a MMO that's several years old. But that doesn't make your argument any more meaningful. Then, you argued that it is harder to tell people to stop hitting, which I've also already addressed by saying you would generally use CC before the tank gets aggro or on strays from the stack (meaning outside of the omnipotent AoE spells). So it's not that you have to coordinate people to stop. They usually won't hit mobs before the tank gets aggro. At least I hope the majority of DPS players still understand that. So listen... instead of just repeating yourselves with the same specific argument over and over.

I don't know what the middle part means. I keep saying CC is more useful than elitists make it out to be. And the response is basically - "end-game characters don't need CC because it only slows us down".

The last part is just a lie. CC is viable every time you're about to die. I've saved many groups from wiping with just a WHM knockback, snare and sleep. I've watched a BLM friend save groups several times with sleeps. I don't know what else to tell you. If you really need help I can try to go over the basics of CC with you.

[RecklessLion]

Without sounding rude, all of what you said is addressed in this thread and has been answered already.

It's all good didn't feel like reading through 17 pages worth of comments so I spoke my mind.

[Jpec07]

Yes, I did. The two of you are arguing that CC isn't useful for one specific type of group (end-game players). I'll admit this is probably the largest group in the game for a MMO that's several years old. But that doesn't make your argument any more meaningful. Then, you argued that it is harder to tell people to stop hitting, which I've also already addressed by saying you would generally use CC before the tank gets aggro or on strays from the stack (meaning outside of the omnipotent AoE spells). So it's not that you have to coordinate people to stop. They usually won't hit mobs before the tank gets aggro. At least I hope the majority of DPS players still understand that. So listen... instead of just repeating yourselves with the same specific argument over and over.

CCing mobs before they're aggro'd !== saving the group. CCing mobs before they're aggro'd == you'd better reapply the CC once the duration runs out if the current group isn't dead, otherwise every one of those mobs is going to go straight for the person who hit them with the CC.

I don't know what the middle part means. I keep saying CC is more useful than elitists make it out to be. And the response is basically - "end-game characters don't need CC because it only slows us down".

CC !== tank defensive cooldowns. This is a thread about tanks using their defensive cooldowns, and discussing whether or not a DPS or healer's CC is worth using is entirely separate to that discussion. You also seem to be veering towards a false perception of me or really anyone who disagrees with you as an elitist (which is ad hominem and invective - see my signature). All this is to say we are very far off topic, and the discussion at hand is not going to do very much to help tanks at all.

The last part is just a lie. CC is viable every time you're about to die. I've saved many groups from wiping with just a WHM knockback, snare and sleep. I've watched a BLM friend save groups several times with sleeps. I don't know what else to tell you. If you really need help I can try to go over the basics of CC with you.

General statement of reality !== lie. You may have circumstantial evidence of BLMs saving groups, or your own knockbacks as a WHM (which, let me tell you, can get REALLY annoying for a tank if they're not communicated), but most content runs I've seen in this game should not require it. Interrupts are one thing, but there are very few points where abilities must be interrupted to avoid a wipe. If a group is going to wipe, and there are DoTs out, AoE sleeping is only going to buy you maybe 3 seconds. Its usefulness is extremely situational, and in any DF setting, you're much more likely to see value from killing stuff more and having a tank who knows how to handle their cooldowns and group enmity than you are from CC.

Good on you and your friend, though.

[HoodRat]

"no one except people who want to try to win pvp matches needs CC because it only slows us down".

This is more accurate than what you had.

[Tanathya]

I don't know what the middle part means. I keep saying CC is more useful than elitists make it out to be. And the response is basically - "end-game characters don't need CC because it only slows us down".

You just rendered your whole argument not valid, if it ever was.

[Red_Wolf]

more stuff implying CC isn't needed in a perfect scenario...

Alright man. Just let me know when you want to learn how and when to use CC. I can help you. Case in point.... having DoTs up breaks CC... I let it go the first time. I figured someone would correct you. Oh well. Only the first tick of a DoT will break CC in this game.

I wish more people knew about it. That was the point of my response. DPS always act helpless on a bad pull when they can help out just as easily as the tank and healer. But instead you want to argue about how CC is useless in well-geared groups during perfect pulls. I don't know what else to say to that.

[Whiteroom]

Whiteroom, in your world every dungeon instance is a speed run by raid-geared characters just earning marks for end-game. That has been the flaw of your argument from the beginning. So please stop... your argument is pointless in this thread in general. A raid geared tank wouldn't need cooldowns or CC to run a low level dungeon. Obviously I'm not addressing that situation in any way shape or form by saying CC should be used. There would hardly ever be a need for CC in that kind of group.

Serious?

Your argument is based on their being some huge portion of the community in min ilvl gear, who don't know their jobs properly, over pull, and lose aggro, yet will somehow manage to coordinate CC. And do all that in a game where the content is tuned so low that it still doesn't matter.


The game throws gear at you. Any time new dungeons are released, the majority of the people playing them will be 15 or so ilvls above what drops in them anyway. And at low level (leveling)you are on to the next dungeon in about 3 runs anyway.

The devs did not design the dungeons for speed runs, but they are tuned so low that that is where the community sets the meta. So in a way the devs kind of did. They released the content so that it could easily be speed run, and then put the grinds in that made speed runs desiarable.


But as far as our line of discussion pertanining to the OP, it does not, OP is about tanks not using defensive CD, not the merits of CC. That you think top geared people dont need CD is interesting, given how much babying you thing lower geared people need.

Why do you think people who can't hold aggro, in a game this easy, are going to be able to coordinate CC, especially when they are going to have to gain aggro back, and two of the tanks aoe aggro will break the cc anyway? And yes Dots that are applied won't break CC, but almost everything else will, same with the smn that hits bane right after you cast sleep.