tanks not using cooldowns?

[Alistaire]

The other thing that's often forgotten is something called "crowd control". For whatever reason DPS doesn't feel required to learn or use it. Tanks and Healers will get blamed all night long but often a simple root can fix a lot of these issues.

The only crowd control that's worth even mentioning on this topic are stuns. The only case I can remotely think of where they're not being used appropriately are ninjas that go in viper stance for trash pulls. Which they shouldn't. But even that's a relatively minor issue. Holy is the best significant crowd control that should be used in dungeons, and even that has a time that it shouldn't be used (blood price). Sleep, bind and non-killshot knockback moves are counterproductive to killing mobs appropriately and should be avoided except in dire circumstances.

[Red_Wolf]

Sleep, bind and non-killshot knockback moves are counterproductive to killing mobs appropriately and should be avoided except in dire circumstances.

I get what you're saying. But you're ignoring the possibility that tanks and healers can struggle. Sleep is not counterproductive when 6 mobs are killing the tank and 5 mobs don't. That's when a DPS should step up and sleep someone instead of just whining and moaning and how bad the tank and healer are.

Yes, in a perfect world CC is never needed. If you group with fc mates or higher-level players, then congrats on ignoring CC. If your tank is the minimum level for the dungeon and is wearing a breastplate 10 levels below the dungeon then you might want to use it instead of lecturing about how your shouldn't need to...

[Alistaire]

I get what you're saying. But you're ignoring the possibility that tanks and healers can struggle. Sleep is not counterproductive when 6 mobs are killing the tank and 5 mobs don't. That's when a DPS should step up and sleep someone instead of just whining and moaning and how bad the tank and healer are.

Yes, in a perfect world CC is never needed. If you group with fc mates or higher-level players, then congrats on ignoring CC. If your tank is the minimum level for the dungeon and is wearing a breastplate 10 levels below the dungeon then you might want to use it instead of lecturing about how your shouldn't need to...

No, when you have to play a dungeon the same way as you would if the tank had dc'd the moral of the story isn't "CC is actually good".

[Red_Wolf]

No, when you have to play a dungeon the same way as you would if the tank had dc'd the moral of the story isn't "CC is actually good".

I'm not sure what the "No" is in response to. You lost me.

I was saying DPS should use CC when in a group with a struggling tank and healer. Do you really disagree with that? It's better to just watch them die? Is that productive or helpful in anyway? Don't you think it will help the tank and healer as they learn?

[Whiteroom]

I'm not sure what the "No" is in response to. You lost me.

I was saying DPS should use CC when in a group with a struggling tank and healer. Do you really disagree with that? It's better to just watch them die? Is that productive or helpful in anyway? Don't you think it will help the tank and healer as they learn?

I get that you want it to be that way, and it would be nice if it were. But it's not. If the tank needs CC on 6 adds, why did they pull that many. Well they probably pulled that many so people could kill them quick. In which case you will be doing AOE damage, which negates sleep anyway. The only time it's useful is when it is combined with something like Holy, where you are able to cleric stance longer because of the stuns, or say, final sting. Even if a pull is accidental it can be gotten through unless everyone is a derp, in which case they need to learn their rolls better, and prioritizing cc is likely beyond them anyway.

[Red_Wolf]

I get that you want it to be that way, and it would be nice if it were. But it's not. If the tank needs CC on 6 adds, why did they pull that many. Well they probably pulled that many so people could kill them quick. In which case you will be doing AOE damage, which negates sleep anyway. The only time it's useful is when it is combined with something like Holy, where you are able to cleric stance longer because of the stuns, or say, final sting. Even if a pull is accidental it can be gotten through unless everyone is a derp, in which case they need to learn their rolls better, and prioritizing cc is likely beyond them anyway.

Obviously you wouldn't try to keep a creature mezzed while spamming aoe on them. You mez the creature and the tank pulls the others away. It is that way... That's pretty much the whole point of having CC in the game. Yes, the tank and other DPS have to be smart enough to avoid that creature for a while. I've done it plenty of times in groups. I've also knocked-back creatures back into the pack when they wander off.

I just don't understand the arguments here. If the choice is between watching the tank die a 100 times in a dungeon or using CC. Then you should try to use CC... unless the tank is complete moron who is unwilling to change or survive. Then you boot him.

[Whiteroom]

Obviously you wouldn't try to keep a creature mezzed while spamming aoe on them. You mez the creature and the tank pulls the others away. It is that way... That's pretty much the whole point of having CC in the game. Yes, the tank and other DPS have to be smart enough to avoid that creature for a while. I've done it plenty of times in groups. I've also knocked-back creatures back into the pack when they wander off.

I just don't understand the arguments here. If the choice is between watching the tank die a 100 times in a dungeon or using CC. Then you should try to use CC... unless the tank is complete moron who is unwilling to change or survive. Then you boot him.

Because it's not needed at all, I have never seen one of these runs where the tanks dies as much as you are pushing. And when the tank is dying a lot, it's because they are doing really stupid things, and could probably stand to die a few times and learn the lesson that comes with it, to ease the stupid in future groups.

You are pushing cc so hard, but really healing is so easy in this game, that it is not worth it. You are actually wasting more energy ccing than just killing them. I would totally agree with you if the dungeons in this game were more demanding, but they just aren't, at all. I would love for their to be a good reason for me to CC, but there are extrememly few circumstances that require it, and even then it's not mandatory.


If the tank is dying that much, you need to stop and teach him how to tank and/or throw the healer some pointers. People only die that much from playing stupidly, not because that one mob didn't get sleep put on it.

[Alistaire]

I'm not sure what the "No" is in response to. You lost me.

I was saying DPS should use CC when in a group with a struggling tank and healer. Do you really disagree with that? It's better to just watch them die? Is that productive or helpful in anyway? Don't you think it will help the tank and healer as they learn?

You're implying CC is good in situations where your tank is so bad they might as well not be there. I'm saying that if your tank is that bad, it's a sign you have a bad tank, not that CC is good.

[Whiteroom]

You're implying CC is good in situations where your tank is so bad they might as well not be there. I'm saying that if your tank is that bad, it's a sign you have a bad tank, not that CC is good.

^

ten characters

[Red_Wolf]

You're implying CC is good in situations where your tank is so bad they might as well not be there. I'm saying that if your tank is that bad, it's a sign you have a bad tank, not that CC is good.

I'm telling you how to help a bad tank out. Nothing more and nothing less.

But if you want my opinion on CC, it is good. Not because some tanks are bad. It's just good. There's a trend of elitism and laziness around it these days that drives me crazy. Yes... I get it. When you're 30 levels higher than a dungeon wearing raid gear you wont' have to use CC. Gratz and all that for grinding out your marks while playing an end-game character. But if you're barely scraping by at low levels without cross-class abilities, no HQ crafted gear, and no gil then it helps a TON. But you actually have to play smart and not tab target while spamming AoE's which is apparently a lot tougher than tanking these days.

Once again I am not saying any of this:
CC is good because some tanks are bad.
CC should be used at all times.
CC should be used over Spamming AoE.
Dungeons in this game are hard for tanks and healers. (this is probably the easiest MMO I've every played tbh)