tanks not using cooldowns?

[Kazumac]

No, it's typically because "Sorry, I was in cleric stance."

No it just means there were two people playing poorly, you and the healer. Just because they failed at their job doesn't mean you have to as well. Also popping vengeance at 10% is a stupid idea, why wouldn't you pop it earlier? If you have 2k left it's likely 1-2 trash mob hits to kill you with or without vengeance. Maybe the 30% slower damage intake going from 90-10% will give the healer time to react. Or maybe it won't but just because the healer failed at their job, doesn't mean you should too. Seriously.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

No, it's typically because "Sorry, I was in cleric stance."

While I can certainly feel and emphathize with you on this matter, unfortunately, a healer's ability in this day and age is determined not by preventing a wipe, but by how hard and high they can ride the DPS meters without letting the tank die. Personally, since tanks hit like wet noodles that soaked up a teaspoon of water now, it's more effective for a tank that knows how to maximize DPS to run faceroll content as a DPS so shit can be finished in a timely manner.

[Whiteroom]

No, it's typically because "Sorry, I was in cleric stance."

Or literally not a single heal being cast because the healer is trying to win the DPS meters.

Your job as a healer is to keep everyone's HP high enough that they're not going to die. When your tank dies because you were DPSing, you're filling the wrong role, period. End of story.

In 4 mans, using vengeance at 98% HP while I'm getting healed and using vengeance at 10% HP while the healer is casting stone are WORLDS different. If you can't see why, you're a bad tank. Keeping cooldowns up with my usual healer, though, is different. Parry cooldowns can also stack with avoidance. At 10% HP, any self heals are WAY more important than they are at 90%.

Cooldowns aren't something you use "just because" they're for survival with bad healers, not so bad healers can win on dps.

If you die while not using cooldowns, maybe it is you who are filling the wrong role.

They aren't for survival with "bad healers", they are what separates a meh tank from a good tank. You're way of thinking here is probably what gets you into trouble. Without using cooldowns properly, you can never be more than a mediocre dungeon tank.

Also it is not the healers job to keep everyone at high hp, it is everyone's job. As a tank you use cooldowns, dodge, keep aggro, and do the mechanics to assist with this.

[HoodRat]

...98% HP while I'm getting healed...

So good healers heal when you've only lost 2% hp?

[Adire]

In 4 mans, using vengeance at 98% HP while I'm getting healed and using vengeance at 10% HP while the healer is casting stone are WORLDS different.

If you're saving Vengeance for when you're at 10% HP, you've waited far too long to even use it effectively. If your healer is in the process of casting a DPS spell and you pop Vengeance at 10% in the middle of a large pull, you're going to die most likely unless they have an instant cast ready to go immediately after, and you still may die.

If you had popped it sooner, it would have slowed damage down enough to actually give the healer more time to react and more time to DPS at the same time.

10% with a still DPSing healer is far more into Holmgang territory than Vengeance territory. You seeming to not understand this says a lot about your understanding of how cooldowns should work.

Vengeance and damage reduction skills like it and such are not for emergencies for healer mistakes, they're for preparing for high incoming damage or lessening damage to make more room for healer DPS. They're a proactive defense much like Galvanize is for SCH, not a reactive emergency button like Lustrate or Benediction are for healers and how Holmgang, Living Dead, and Hallowed Ground would be for tanks in regards to trash pulls (though given, Hallowed Ground technically can be used as a means to allow for more healer DPS)

If you use skills like Vengeance in this way in this situation you described, you are using them very ineffectively and pretty much guarantee your death at worst, and inefficiency at best. It's too late for them to be of much benefit since the next wave of damage will still kill you without assistance, and the healer will still have to spam heal you all the way back up and kill Vengeance time instead of being able to continue DPSing more with all the damage mitigated by a full length Vengeance.

[Tanathya]

Your job as a healer is to keep everyone's HP high enough that they're not going to die. When your tank dies because you were DPSing, you're filling the wrong role, period. End of story.

Stop telling the rest of the people's jobs when you can't do yours, which is to mitigate damage. You're bad, terrible, and I'm glad I never crossed paths with you, because you're doing it on purpose. You're so wrong on so many levels I can't even.

How in the world can you call someone else bad when you're at fault? I mean, even with a bad healer you're at fault to begin with, since their job is to heal the damage you've taken, and you're taking more damage than you should by not using CDs, so it all starts with you. If you're not mitigating damage to the best of your capabilities, you're not tanking, you're just holding hate, which I can do with literally any job in this game.

Edit: inb4 someone jumps and calls me an elitist, read the bold part.

[Awful]

I've been tanking since 2004. When did you start tanking in games?

I've been tanking since Burning Crusade in WoW was a pally main in vanilla WoW because paladins couldn't tank, I played many MMOs, played many different play styles, developed awareness in all classes and applied to how I play today. I used to be a hardcore raider in FF 14 back in 2.0 but now i'm more midcore with my static as we all have schedules n what not, I cleared the old coils when it was progression, I cleared savage coil when it was content (except T7 because it was incredibly tough). Now tell me what is your progression in this game? I never see you talking about raids, doing Gordias Savage or any "hard" content (putting that as by your previous posts on the forums) other than saying "it's not fair I have to get new fending when they made it super easy to get it", but now i'm just ranting.

Less HP means EHP for raids you have your EHP which is different from other MMOs which was very strange to many people but it was the meta, either you did it and succeeded or you got left in the dust having EHP and rotating your CDs is being a good tank something you should have strived for. This isn't something you had to do it's something you were supposed to do which is why I said you have no clue about tanking a good tank would have known that, if you pulled big and used nothing you were a bad tank, end of story. Having vitality was good for big pulls however, if you used vit and swapped out for str on bosses it was fine it was what tanks did it didn't make you easier to heal which is what you need to get through your thick skull all tanks take dmg equally it's more about the player.

I laughed when you said my tank gained 7k more health which means you don't have to use CDs as much have you done any of the new content? Even Gordias normal? The extra vit and CDs are needed especially in Savage tanks are in a good place right now funny how you think this cushion is extra defense it's just a CUSHION. It's nice to have but not needed, now if vit gave +armor or something it'd be a necessity but as it stands as .45 of our weights it's still better to have the split then not at all.

End of my rant but lets be serious here your posts are very uninformative and misguided allover the place but i'll leave you with this:

You cannot post in the tanking forums if you have no clue what you're talking about, this is all pretty common sense stuff.

[iAmScallywag]

Cooldowns aren't something you use "just because" they're for survival with bad healers, not so bad healers can win on dps.

I'm going to overlook everything else to focus on this statement. CDs aren't something you use "just because" you use them because it increases your survivability. If you roll your CDs properly then you allow your healer more leeway to be able to dps which makes groups of mobs downed faster, which means you take damage for less time. The only time you should not be using your CDs if if you're in a fight were you need it later.

Case in point, running Antitower with a FC healer last night new to the dungeon. I'm rolling my CDs so efficiently that she is able to DPS to the max and I never died. The only time I was in danger of dying was when she got a little overzealous and went OOM from DPSing. What I did was pop my panic button (HG) and I healed myself with Clemency to give her a window to recover some mana and get back to it.

[iAmScallywag]

snip

Because of the stupid 1000 character limit I had to cut off some of what I wanted to say. Either way, I could have died and we could have blamed her for DPSing and going OOM and not paying attention. OR because I rolled my CDs effectively beforehand, giving myself and her a bigger window of error, while maintaining a panic button just in case.....we can all live...she can learn from the mistake and become a better healer for it. I'll take living and looking like a boss over wiping and getting to blame the healer any day of the week. People need to learn that classes have a basic job that anyone can do. Tanks hold aggro, healers heal, dps do damage. But the truly good tanks, healers, and dps are those that can do that basic function and more. Tanks managing CDs well to take less damage overall and maximize their dps, healers being able to dps, dps being able to....ummmm...do more dps?

[Jamillion]

Stop telling the rest of the people's jobs when you can't do yours, which is to mitigate damage. You're bad, terrible, and I'm glad I never crossed paths with you, because you're doing it on purpose. You're so wrong on so many levels I can't even.

How in the world can you call someone else bad when you're at fault? I mean, even with a bad healer you're at fault to begin with, since their job is to heal the damage you've taken, and you're taking more damage than you should by not using CDs, so it all starts with you. If you're not mitigating damage to the best of your capabilities, you're not tanking, you're just holding hate, which I can do with literally any job in this game.

Edit: inb4 someone jumps and calls me an elitist, read the bold part.

Well, I'm glad you said it and not me, I'd be likely to get myself banned again. But yeah, that's some top-notch scrub play only using cooldowns at 10%