Repair NPCs in Dungeons

[whiskeybravo]

Wow.. I don't know if I've ever seen this many walls of text on a thread lol

TLDR; Level crafters if you want to repair in a dungeon. It takes like 4 hours to get from 1-50, you could've leveled 2 in the time spent ranting on this thread.

[WinterLuna]

You're probably one of the few honest poster's I've seen, that instead of trying to create disingenuous "They don't care" or "They don't try to discuss it", literally just comes forward and says "I don't care what you think, I like it this way."

This is exactly what everyone is already doing, our arguments are obviously because we like the current system and don't think it's necessary. Opinions about lore and crafting are the same, we like it this way, and like Fyce said, it won't change our opinion although we respect yours.

[Eidolon]

This is exactly what everyone is already doing, our arguments are obviously because we like the current system and don't think it's necessary. Opinions about lore and crafting are the same, we like it this way, and like Fyce said, it won't change our opinion although we respect yours.

No, people have been saying "It's wrong because of Lore" when that's not the case at all. As I have pointed out, just about every single dungoun (There are a few exceptions) has an NPC posted out the front of them. These NPC's could easily migrate inside the dungoun when you start, and have a piece of flavor text and serve the purpose of repairing gear.

Objectively, there is something different between saying "I don't like it so I don't want it" and "I don't like it because you're wrong about these things." One implies the other party is wrong for their belief. The other shows that you just prefer things different. I can respect the second one more instead of hiding behind the guise of 'reasons.'

[WinterLuna]

Snip

Yet if people came here and just said "nah. I don't want this implemented", I can guarantee they'd get jumped on and demanded an explanation. Those arguments are personal explanations. To some people, it IS wrong because of lore and people are not happy with the proposed solutions. If it makes you feel better, I'll leave it as I don't like this idea, and I don't want it implemented.

[Eidolon]

Yet if people came here and just said "nah. I don't want this implemented", I can guarantee they'd get jumped on and demanded an explanation. Those arguments are personal explanations. To some people, it IS wrong because of lore and people are not happy with the proposed solutions. If it makes you feel better, I'll leave it as I don't like this idea, and I don't want it implemented.

Honestly I've seen people frequently go into topics saying "I dislike this" but they don't try to really 'disprove' of the OP. When you try to disprove something, you put yourself in the public arena for discussion. Both sides need to be ready to defend their beliefs if they put them forward. However, simply disagreeing is fine with me.

[ArikDimas]

As I have pointed out, just about every single dungoun (There are a few exceptions) has an NPC posted out the front of them. These NPC's could easily migrate inside the dungoun when you start, and have a piece of flavor text and serve the purpose of repairing gear.

I'd just like to point out that for every dungeon except Halatali hard mode, there is no lore reason fitting for a repair npc. Even for the npcs outside the dungeon, they are not trained in being able to repair gear and are stationed as sentry to prevent unauthorized people from entering, or trying to stop whatever is in there from leaving. Like someone else said, it would make more sense that if they entered, for them to be helping you fight, but in most dungeons you see how well that turns out for any npc ally.

[Eidolon]

I'd just like to point out that for every dungeon except Halatali hard mode, there is no lore reason fitting for a repair npc. Even for the npcs outside the dungeon, they are not trained in being able to repair gear and are stationed as sentry to prevent unauthorized people from entering, or trying to stop whatever is in there from leaving. Like someone else said, it would make more sense that if they entered, for them to be helping you fight, but in most dungeons you see how well that turns out for any npc ally.

Ok, what's your source to say the following:
1) that they would not be capable of repairing gear,
2) That they would not be capable of taking up a tradeskill?

You have full well aknowledged that the NPC's outside the dungoun would be able to enter and try to assist in their own way, but their guard duties bind them to the entrance. The difference, in this scenario, is the difference between standing on the Inside of a door and Outside of a door.

To say the least, it's a very flimsy reason, because it relies on being predicated by the belief (not proof) that the members of a GC Would not have any training in the repair of their own gear, especially with a magical McGuffin like Dark Matter around.

Again, this will link back to Tataru. A character with a diverse amount of attempts at various different professions, it is clear that the character, PC or NPC, are able to take up various professions. For a character like Tataru who is a Miner, Arcanist (albeit a poor one) and a Weaver. To a character like Thancred who is a Rogue/Gladiator.

[ArikDimas]

Well, for 1 and 2, that's more for you to prove that they can than for me to prove they can't since pre-existing lore shows that they can't, outside of certain more plot important npcs like the two you mentioned. For the most part, an npc has never been shown to cross class, except for a few early level situations where certain quest specific npcs have access to cure from conjurer. Outside of that, we have npcs with jobs that don't even have access to their cross classes, such as all the dragoons (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this). There are also npcs that have access to skills that go beyond what we can do, such as Alphinaud in the HW story. But there's no evidence of an npc being able to cross class outside of cure (but really, that itself is a different can of worms when you think about that one npc in the conjurer quest line who only wanted to use healing magick), excluding menders.

About a sentry being inside vs outside a dungeon, in some dungeons we really have no idea how deep inside the dungeon we actually are when we start. And with some dungeons, you have to remember that there are enemies within the first room, or viewing the first room from the hall, if there was a lone guard standing inside, more likely than not he would get attacked when his job is supposed to be preventing people from getting themselves hurt by going in.

Going back to Tataru and including Thancred, someone mentioned before that lore has already shown their growth into multi classing, while there is nothing showing a generic guards ability to do anything besides what their weapon shows. Also, as you pointed out with Tataru and being an Arcanist, npcs are not like the WoL, they can not just be any class or job without issue as they have limits to what they can do while protgaonist syndrome allows us to surpass those limits.

Overall, I don't care about the issue that much, I've tended to side with the people against it mainly cause I interpreted the people for it as being more hostile early on about this. I just don't agree with the statement that the lore can support them being in there and am usually against the idea of retconning lore to fit something in.

[Eidolon]

Well, for 1 and 2, that's more for you to prove that they can than for me to prove they can't since pre-existing lore shows that they can't, outside of certain more plot important npcs like the two you mentioned. For the most part, an npc has never been shown to cross class, except for a few early level situations where certain quest specific npcs have access to cure from conjurer. Outside of that, we have npcs with jobs that don't even have access to their cross classes, such as all the dragoons (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this). There are also npcs that have access to skills that go beyond what we can do, such as Alphinaud in the HW story. But there's no evidence of an npc being able to cross class outside of cure (but really, that itself is a different can of worms when you think about that one npc in the conjurer quest line who only wanted to use healing magick), excluding menders.

So, permit me to get this straight:
You are suggesting that, outside of situations that exist in the game, I need to prove that such situations exist? No, the fact that the situations exist is more indictive of the nature of there being characters that accept professions that exceed the baseline of a single class/job. What needs to be proven, is that there isn't this occurance, because currently there is evidence that it does indeed exist.

Simply put, the burden of proof is on you (And those who claim it defies lore that the NPC's would have the ability to have the ability to repair gear.) Currently, the major reason I dislike this arguement is because it's an arguement born of ignorance. You have no way to prove your assertion, but you are willing to make it. MEanwhile, we have examples (Even if they are limited, it is still more than the opposition's 0) that displays characters who are able to take on multiple professions.

About a sentry being inside vs outside a dungeon, in some dungeons we really have no idea how deep inside the dungeon we actually are when we start. And with some dungeons, you have to remember that there are enemies within the first room, or viewing the first room from the hall, if there was a lone guard standing inside, more likely than not he would get attacked when his job is supposed to be preventing people from getting themselves hurt by going in.

'

Considering that the NPC simultaneously exists both within and without the dungoun in the given circumstance, it would not be unrealistic to expect that the NPC would "Follow" you in to the entrance, and hold at the entrance. In a way, this is also a method of supporting the PC, as it allows them to know they have a spot they can return to should everything go wrong. It further gives credence to the fact some NPC's, such as the one who watches over the Aurum Vale, even go so far as telling you that they will pull you out should you spend too long in there for your own safety.

Once more, Lore does not prevent the NPC's from entering. An arbitrary belief that the NPC's can not enter is what prevents it, to many people, and this is the fallacy that I contend with very passionately.

Going back to Tataru and including Thancred, someone mentioned before that lore has already shown their growth into multi classing, while there is nothing showing a generic guards ability to do anything besides what their weapon shows. Also, as you pointed out with Tataru and being an Arcanist, npcs are not like the WoL, they can not just be any class or job without issue as they have limits to what they can do while protgaonist syndrome allows us to surpass those limits.

Lore that suggests their growth was added in retroactively, and was not originally part of their character. In these cases, the maleable lore allowed them to have these traits added to their character after their introduction, and as has been pointed out, only serves to create a more diverse and rich character. The same can be done with NPC's, and is the reasoning behind the "Lore is Maleable" arguement.

Overall, I don't care about the issue that much, I've tended to side with the people against it mainly cause I interpreted the people for it as being more hostile early on about this. I just don't agree with the statement that the lore can support them being in there and am usually against the idea of retconning lore to fit something in.

Well, my appologies if I have come off as overly harsh to anyone. I am a very heated person, and I understand that can definitely be considered very opressive to many people.

[ArikDimas]

I must be forgetting where within the game it shows where a generic soldier knows how to repair gear, which is why I was saying it's your job to prove they can and not mine to prove they can't. Could you tell me where in game npcs outside of menders show the ability to repair gear?

With the second point, I have to stick with the point that the soldiers we see outside of some dungeons are sentries in most cases, and not tasked with assisting you, just keeping unauthorized people outside of it. If they did come in to drag us to a safe zone should we fall, they would more likely die trying to drag 4 corpses away from whatever killed them. And with some dungeons such as Stone Vigil hard, it's hard to say whether it is the same npc or not because of how similar they look in their armor, and I think the ones in there for the second boss may have already been in there, but I could be wrong about that.

With lore being maleable, personably I'd rather have something big cause things to change rather than just changing it because they can. Admittedly this is going on me not remembering an instance of generic soldiers knowing how to repair gear, but say in 4.0 we get into full scale war with the Garleans, at that point, soldiers need to be able to act outside of their and learn how to handle various tasks outside of their normal duties in case of emergencies. Although that wouldn't fit repair npcs being in 2.0 and 3.0 dungeons.

And np about coming off as harsh, besides you weren't even in this on the first couple pages where I started taking that stance.