Is dpsing and a healer becoming the standard norm!

[Odett]

Simple point. Lets say I'm healing, but I'm throwing in Aero and Stone of whichever level is available. I'm using virus, and as needed even sleeping targets. Everynow and again, i get off a couple of Holy's. But, for whatever reason I don't have MP to burn, or there isn't time, and I fall back to straight healing. Who are you to decide if there is plenty of time for me to DPS? White Mage especially needs to manage their MP since they don't have aether-flow, or the ability to drain MP from a target, sure I can pop Shroud, but that's not an instant MP gain. I have to hold MP in reserve for when some happy go lucky DD can't seem to stop standing in stupid, and needs me to save their butt.

That's not the issue at hand, though. No one is arguing that you must DPS all the time, and it's completely normal if you're conservative with your MP management for the first pull of a dungeon just so you can gauge your group, see if the tank uses cooldowns correctly, see if DPS dodge AoE's. Even if you're DPSing a lot, and you feel like you're going to run out of MP, like you've stated, it's the smart move to stop DPSing because MP management is your job. A lot of people, however, pop Shroud way too late, and Assize does instantly restore a portion of your MP, so WHM does not play like it did in ARR. Pop a Divine Seal, Asylum, and Regen, and the passive healing that your tank will be getting will be really nice, freeing you up to do other things. It's also a lot easier as a WHM now to throw out an "oh shit!" heal coming right out of Cleric Stance with the inclusion of Tetragrammaton into their toolkit, which is an OtGCd heal.We're mainly talking about healers who avoid DPSing like it's the plague, to the point where they throw a heal every 10 seconds or heal bomb you every time you fall below 95% HP, and both are extremely lazy and no one should be encouraging that playstyle.

Here's the issue with that logic... Your DPS goes down (yes, for their own silly antics), that means the PARTY's DPS is lowered overall. This means it will take longer regardless to get through a dungeon/raid. A healer or SMN must then swiftcast raise, which then uses up a good chunk of MP. Probably 2 or 3 cure's worth. Those 2 or 3 cures probably could of kept that DPS up in the first place. I'd hardly call that productive. It's one thing to learn a lesson, it's another for the whole group to suffer for that lesson to be learned.

Tough love is sometimes needed. It is not a healer's responsibility to babysit a DPS who doesn't dodge, just like it's not that DPS's right to hold their healer hostage. Some lessons are learned the hard way.

[Reinha]

For people who play a role charged with healing, it's ironic how little you care for those putting healing first.

But, for whatever reason I don't have MP to burn, or there isn't time, and I fall back to straight healing. Who are you to decide if there is plenty of time for me to DPS? White Mage especially needs to manage their MP since they don't have aether-flow, or the ability to drain MP from a target, sure I can pop Shroud, but that's not an instant MP gain. I have to hold MP in reserve for when some happy go lucky DD can't seem to stop standing in stupid, and needs me to save their butt.

Ok first of all, stop with the strawman. I think you can do better than that. Nobody is saying that a healer should do damage at the expense of keeping people alive and keeping enough mp to do so. Nobody's saying that healing doesn't come first. I also don't see anyone trying to micromanage when and what healers should damage. What I do see being said is that healers ought to do some damage instead of standing there idling like a statue when no damage is incoming. As much I'd love for there to be something to heal in dungeons, that's not how the game works and no amount of stubborn standing-around-doing-nothing-while-others-do-the-work is going to change that.

The fact that you included your own dps as the reason to run out of mp in dungeons shows that even you don't think healing alone uses all of your mp reserve. Mp is not a reason to not touch Cleric Stance even once in a dungeon run. In the whole dungeon. There are no dungeons where it's even possible for DDs to stand in stupid 100% of the time so that point is also moot. You don't need to heal when the tank is tanking one remaining mob and no aoes are hurting the group. Or when a boss is channeling/casting an ability without hurting anyone (Brace on the last boss of Antitower or Cure IV on the last boss in LCoA Hardmode for example). These are just examples and a good healer will recognize the right moments to contribute. There is always time to not be lazy in the current dungeons.

To prove that mp and time are bad excuses, I ran Lost City of Amdapor Hard as a WHM wearing only my weapon, chest, pants and boots which brought me down to 76 average item level. My piety and healing potency were both reduced by a third. The tank was wearing the highest level freely farmable gear, i.e. 200 left side. I was still able to do some damage in every trash pull and boss fight without anyone dying. It was so laughably easy I don't know what the devs where thinking. I cba running it again but I'm pretty sure it would be possible to do it with just a weapon. If I can do it so undergeared as the job that has to watch their mp the most, then that's proof enough that anyone at the minimum item level or higher can also do it mathematically speaking. It's just a matter of wanting to step up from the bare minimum contribution just like damage dealers and tanks have a choice to do more than just their 123 combo.

[Malicewolf]

Tough love is sometimes needed. It is not a healer's responsibility to babysit a DPS who doesn't dodge, just like it's not that DPS's right to hold their healer hostage. Some lessons are learned the hard way.

Not saying to babysit, but to simply let them die when you have the opportunity to save fairly easily, it's not worth it overall. MOST AoE's will not 1 shot a DPS. Just put a regen on them, maybe 1 cure if your tank is pretty topped off at the moment. That will save a silly DPS standing in AoE's 90% of the time. If they continue running into AoE's before the regen can bring their hp back up and your tank is needing attention, then yea, sure. But unless your DPS is literally doing pretty much nothing, he will bring in more DPS than you as a healer can do, even if you didn't need to heal. For those who want to "teach a lesson" the only thing you're doing by such is prolonging your torment by making things take longer.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

A healer or SMN must then swiftcast raise, which then uses up a good chunk of MP. Probably 2 or 3 cure's worth. Those 2 or 3 cures probably could of kept that DPS up in the first place.

Who cares. DPS are expendable, no one cares if a DPS dies, and it's not uncommon to see healers riding their parses to ignore dead deeps, whether the death was caused by unavoidable AoE or not.

[Malicewolf]

Who cares. DPS are expendable, no one cares if a DPS dies, and it's not uncommon to see healers riding their parses to ignore dead deeps, whether the death was caused by unavoidable AoE or not.

DPS aren't priority, but to say they are expendable... For all those in here talking about "maximizing", i find it hilarious that you think allowing a DPS to die is more efficient... Even a bad DPS doing dmg is better than them doing none. Do take note, I said if it's reasonable to keep them up. I'm not saying save DPS's who literally take on more damage than your tank. But i've seen lazy healers not bother putting a regen on a DPS that took 1 AoE by accident and dies on the next party wide dmg because they were less than half hp for a few min.

Keeping a DPS that's practically trying to die up and sustaining your party are separate issues though. But as always, every bit helps. Considering how everyone in here is for the most part talking about "maximizing" their play, i find it hilarious you all think you'll maximize anything by letting party members die.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Considering how everyone in here is for the most part talking about "maximizing" their play, i find it hilarious you all think you'll maximize anything by letting party members die.

It's pretty much the same as all the complaints about strength tanks. Pretty much every healer I've met that was as obsessed with DPS as people are in this thread have proven that all they care about are maximizing their numbers/parses over everything else, even if that means failing the content. It's entertaining to read if nothing else, though

[cgbspender]

In fact, maximizing dps includes management of mana. If one thinks that the raise isn't worth it (because the DD doesn't deal enough damages, dies repeatedly), one might as well spend that very mana for dps'ing rather than raising.

[Enkonda]

From my experience, if there's nothing else to heal, things get pretty boring pretty fast. I chose the healer job to heal but again, if there's nothing to heal, then Stone II, Areo II, and the occasional holy are my friends that keep me company until the Tank or DPS start taking an enormous amount of damage. I have been in dungeons where I've saw the healer just sitting there but unlike most, I usually assume that they're new and aren't comfortable with stance dancing or just like doing the bare minimum to past. I never feel the need to reprimand them for doing their job 50% since in the long run, the dungeon will get done...;it'll just take 50% longer than if the healer came into the dungeon 100% full throttle ready with heals and some offensive magic.

[Odett]

as people are in this thread have proven that all they care about are maximizing their numbers/parses over everything else, even if that means failing the content. It's entertaining to read if nothing else, though

I'm not sure how "you should DPS during the ample downtime you have as a healer" translates into "maximize your numbers over everything else" for you. There is not one single person in this thread that is claiming the absurdity you're stating.

[Noxifer]

It's encouraged to DPS, but not required or enforced in any normal dungeon content.
Sure, they can if they want to, put pressing them into doing more then they are willing to and they might act up.

And a stubborn healer you rubbed the wrong way is one of the last things you want in the dungeon, right behind a stubborn tank you angered.

Oh, I agree that it shouldn't be required (encouraged, yeah, but not demanded), but it does kind of mean you're not playing your role to its full potential. I tend not to comment on healers not dpsing, even if it does kind of irk me when it's someone who stands there for ten to fifteen seconds between each heal cast ^^; However, I know people who don't heal that often and I know what it's like to be relatively new to a place (or having taken a break and gotten rusty), so I don't want to be all rude.

Same with stance-dancing tanks. It's not required, even if it ups dps. (Although that was made more risky and less effective with 3.2) Done incorrectly, it means the tank fails her primary job of keeping aggro and usually leads to a wipe. Done correctly, it means the fight goes much quicker.

But the healers who go "no, never going to heal outside of solo content, because that's not my job :<" kind of remind me of "ice mages". Sure, stuff gets done, but... Meh. To me, they're just as annoying as the healers (or dps) who go pulling more mobs without making sure the tank is comfortable with actually holding them. Especially in low-level dungeons before most classes get their AoE damage >.< (Well, okay, the "just a few mobs more" non-tanks win the annoyance league.)