Is dpsing and a healer becoming the standard norm!

[Kaurie]

You're wrong if you think raids, trials etc. also need minimal healing like in dungeons, especially something like savage raids and Sephirot EX which is such a healer-intensive fight during the adds phases. And predictable? During enrage, sure, but you're so incorrect about this.

I am not sure if I am misunderstanding you, but are you saying that damage in raids is not predictable? I agree, Seph EX requires a lot more healing than dungeons. Despite this, I have no issue getting in damage consistently throughout the entire thing. I've been healing in a raiding environment in FFXIV for a long time - I mention this as it sounds like you think I am new to the game or new to healing or something. I've personally healed in T1, T2, T4, T5, T6, T9, T10, T11, T12, T13, A1S, A2S, Garuda Ex, Titan Ex, Ifrit Ex, Leviathan Ex, Ramuh Ex, Shiva Ex, Ravana Ex, Bismarck Ex, Sephirot Ex, Thordan Ex, Moogle Ex.

If nobody is taking damage or suffering detrimental effects in the expert dungeons then that could mean the party is good at avoiding all these bad things and the tank is good at mitigating damage with their own cooldowns, giving an easier life for the healer. If you actually want them to suffer more damage and debuffs just so you can have the satisfaction of healing them more then feel free to ask them to intentionally get hit by all the mechanics.

Well that would be quite idiotic.

Healers are meant to DPS during downtime anyway. I mean, they were given Cleric Stance and were given offensive skills at 52-60, especially WHM with the most given like Aero III, Assize and Stone III.
Both healing and contributing to DPS means you're helping the party even more. Lacking in one means you're not playing the role as efficiently. It's been mentioned in the Novice Hall itself that healers should be casting damaging magicks if the party is fine so nobody can't really deny that healers weren't meant to DPS.

I am not sure the relevance of this as directed to me. Or was just the first half of your post directed at me? If this part is, then I believe you didn't read my posts entirety or misunderstood something along the way. As a healer, I have DPSed in every encounter. I understand the game is designed with this in mind, but that doesn't make me think that the design isn't bad.

No other roles have such flexibility to heal other than the healer themselves. The tank can but it's not as efficient. You heal to keep the party up, that simply makes you a healer.

?

If a healer is actually opposed to DPSing when there's downtime then they're incompetent. Healers heal when necessary, they DPS when there's no need to heal. That's how the game works, and I see this as something that'll never change because that's the concept they're built on. I'll never understand this mindset of "If i'm expected to DPS as a healer then I should've just rolled a DPS class/job instead" when all of the roles already have so much opportunities and tools to DPS. You're just putting all of that to waste.

Unfortunate truths here.

[dinnertime]

my problem is the downtime is almost 100%. when i am spending more time dpsing than healing than i think this is bad game design. especially with the lack of accuracy and mana.

i was in there at day one, full blind run with minimum ilvl option and it already was a joke.

yes, a healer is meant to dps in his downtimes, i can agree to that. but i dislike the amount of downtimes. in the 2.x era i couldn't stay all day in cleric.

I'll give you accuracy but you shouldn't be burning all your MP on DPSing at all. But yeah having so much downtime from healing is definitely because of the tank changes.

I may have been a little harsh about what I've said though that healers should be DPS and that i'm rubbing it on people who are opposed to it. Like Kallera said, it's something optional for healers to do but I just believe not doing it at all is just incompetence on the healer's part. Still, you're free not to contribute to DPS.
I actually enjoy DPSing as a healer and keeping the party up simultaneously so I dunno why others can't feel the same, honestly.

[Kaurie]

I'll give you accuracy but you shouldn't be burning all your MP on DPSing at all. But yeah having so much downtime from healing is definitely because of the tank changes.

Again. It has nothing to do with tank changes. The encounters put out less damage per second. Having more VIT doesn't make you take less damage, it just adds a higher buffer before you have to heal. These dungeons don't require you to heal, because the damage per second to the tank is approximately 1/3 of what it was previously. Coincidentally, Eos does 1/3 of my healing, so I am set.

[Tint]

I'll never understand this mindset of "If i'm expected to DPS as a healer then I should've just rolled a DPS class/job instead" when all of the roles already have so much opportunities and tools to DPS. You're just putting all of that to waste.

why do i have to put all my healing spells to waste? i have lots of them, not just regen o.ô

[Kosmos992k]

This topic just never goes away does it? Perhaps it should have it's own sub-forum?

Either way, Healers heal, Tanks tank and DPS deal big damage. Tanks and healers can contribute extra DPS depending on circumstances. However, demanding that Healers DPS more is akin to asking DPS players to do more party healing. That's never going to happen is it? It's totally inefficient. In effect this expectation demands that healers perform two roles, healer and damage dealer.

Personally I would much rather a Healer focus on keeping everyone alive rather than stance dancing and running in to Holy the crap out of things. If circumstances allow, and the player is comfortable, that's great, but if not, let the healer heal, and if they find room to do damage it's a nice added bonus.

[Kaurie]

However, demanding that Healers DPS more is akin to asking DPS players to do more party healing. That's never going to happen is it? It's totally inefficient. In effect this expectation demands that healers perform two roles, healer and damage dealer..

The difference to determine efficiency comes from opportunity cost.

Opportunity cost of a DPS healing: Lost damage.

Opportunity cost of a healer DPSing: Nothing (unless you count entertaining emotes).

If there was an encounter where a DPS could be doing absolutely nothing, nothing to attack so the opportunity cost of healing was not lost damage AND there was a fair amount of healing to do that the added heals from a BLM/SMN were useful, then sure. It'd be the same thing. The thing is, this is never the case.

This comparison would be even more relevant if BLM/SMN had a healing stance as well.

This topic just never goes away does it? Perhaps it should have it's own sub-forum?

I agree, and for some reason i cannot stop posting in it.

[dinnertime]

I am not sure if I am misunderstanding you, but are you saying that damage in raids is not predictable? I agree, Seph EX requires a lot more healing than dungeons. Despite this, I have no issue getting in damage consistently throughout the entire thing. I've been healing in a raiding environment in FFXIV for a long time - I mention this as it sounds like you think I am new to the game or new to healing or something. I've personally healed in T1, T2, T4, T5, T6, T9, T10, T11, T12, T13, A1S, A2S, Garuda Ex, Titan Ex, Ifrit Ex, Leviathan Ex, Ramuh Ex, Shiva Ex, Ravana Ex, Bismarck Ex, Sephirot Ex, Thordan Ex, Moogle Ex.

No I am not implying you are new at all. While most fights we have are scripted, it doesn't mean it will always go as planned with the party with some people who would make mistakes like for example: a party member killing too much adds simultaneously in Sephirot Ex or getting debuffs, and there are certainly some random mechanics as well.
By the way they example you gave is just as predictable as most fights in FFXIV if you know the monster is getting near a certain party member. It's comparable to cast timers.

Well that would be quite idiotic.

Then don't hope for it.

I am not sure the relevance of this as directed to me. Or was just the first half of your post directed at me? If this part is, then I believe you didn't read my posts entirety or misunderstood something along the way. As a healer, I have DPSed in every encounter. I understand the game is designed with this in mind, but that doesn't make me think that the design isn't bad.

Most of what I've said isn't really directed to you specifically but it's related to the thread discussion here.

?

Same as above. People believe healers shouldn't be called a healer if they're advised to DPS.

Unfortunate truths here.

It's unfortunate that you are opposed to this.

why do i have to put all my healing spells to waste? i have lots of them, not just regen o.ô

Because there's a specific time for them, same with damage spells.

[Kosmos992k]

The difference to determine efficiency comes from opportunity cost.

Opportunity cost of a DPS healing: Lost damage.

Opportunity cost of a healer DPSing: Nothing (unless you count entertaining emotes).

I'm not suggesting healers should twiddle their thumbs or dance between phases while everyone else flails away. I agree with you that behavior would be ridiculous and I don't think anyone would think it was appropriate for that to happen.

Quick aside : In another game we had someone in a party who'd literally sit down during fights, if they felt they were not needed for that fight. Guess how long they lasted before we abandoned the quest and repartied...I remember another occasion where some player who thought they were sh*t hot was making snide comments about others. So, we fed him to a mini-boss. Twice. He left, and we killed the remainder of the quest without him. So I agree that players should always pull their weight and contribute to the team in every way they can.

As always in this discussion I agree (with you) in that if a healer can, and is comfortable doing so, they really ought to contribute as much as they can to a fight. However, how much the contribute needs to be their decision and not mine, yours or anyone else's.

Players have different levels of comfort with stance dancing and damage dealing as a healer. I would expect that end-game players and raiders who are healers would have the art of stance dancing well practiced. But in general, I don't think it fair to demand or expect all healers should perform as healers in raids do.

...and regarding this topic needing a sub-forum...

I agree, and for some reason i cannot stop posting in it.

Neither can I.

[Kaurie]

snip.

Ah OK that makes more sense. I felt your reply to my post didn't make a lot of sense. That said, your points make a lot of sense.

I agree in the current game that healers should DPS and if you are not then you are playing poorly.

I disagree that the comparison is the same of Guild Wars 1 to this. In GW1 it was unexpected of when people were going to get hit. In FFXIV everything is on a timer. I know that I can do this exact rotation as a SCH in Seph EX every time:

-Adlo/Depoy or Succor prepull, Cleric Stance
-Bio II
-Miasma
-Bio
-Swiftcast Shadowflare
-E-Drain
-Aero
-E-Drain
-Cleric Off
-Succor
-Adlo tank
-Succor
-Cleric on
-Bio
-Miasma
-Aero
-Sacred Soil
-Stack/Aetherflow
-Bio II
-Cleric off
-Rouse***
-Succor
-Whispering Dawn
-Adlo Tank
-Emergency Tactics
-Adlo tank (tank buster)
-Cleric on
-Bio II
-Miasma
-Bio
-Swift/Shadowflare
-E-drain
-Aero
-E-drain
-Cleric off
-move for circles
-move back in
-Succor
-Adlo tank
-Emergency Tactics
-Adlo tank
-Cleric on
-Bio
-Miasma
-Aero
-Bio II
-Sacred Soil
-Aetherflow
-Cleric off
-Succor

(NOTE for above rotation, I do fit in quite a few Broils, but that I don't have counted and just fit them in where I can)

repeat from *** until add phase

etc etc.. I mean, every time, without fail. There is like 0 AI, 0 unexpected damage, 0 variation.

In terms of the add phase, that is a little bit more GW1 in what I am saying, in that I know to succor as adds get low on HP - especially pre cochma death and post cocham indom/succor. That said, aoe healing isn't that fun. I'd rather have unexpected damage spikes on the DPS that I need to be ready for and ready to heal asap or they are going to die. Putting on cleric stance and DPSing would be this huge risk and likely result in deaths. Instead, I can pop it on relatively risk free in 'healing intensive' encounters.

[melisande]

Let me change the title for you:
Using all of the skills / actions you are able to use on your job is completely normal.