Bahamut and Eikons

[Frederick22]

Not sure if already someone asked question before so I will go then.

Could Bahamut being consider an Eikon for the allagans?
Based on the power he and and how the allagans end up in using him once he was captured?

Its not interesting that the all this powerfull beings, The Warring Triad and Bahamut, ( not saing Eikons since I dont know if Bahamut is one of them ) all came from Meracyadia? ( with the exept of Odin, but common I feel hi isnt even a match from them )What does place have in particular? Why we havent hear about orther Eikons at this point? What orther tribes worshipped the remaining members of the Triad?

Adding, why Odin could not end of being another of this big allagan "batteries" or "experimentations" ?

[AutumnHarvestwind]

I do believe that Allagans referred to primals as Eikons, and that's why the Garlean Empire calls primals Eikons. I also remember somewhere that Eikons are considered 'lowly' 'primals'.
Isn't Bahamut called an Elder Primal, though? Not sure if this title was given by the Allagans, however. This looks like a job for Anonymoose!

[Khalithar]

Snip

If I remember the lore correctly, Eikons are similar to primals but are at a significantly higher level of power. In the case of the Garleans referring to primals as Eikons I think that's something much easier to explain, Garlean's borrow a lot of stuff from ancient Allagan tech, ancient Allagans referred to the more powerful Primals as Eikons. As time passed, I believe that in the Garlean language the words "Eikon" and "Primal" became interchangeable over time as the difference between the words became blurred and eventually disappeared.

[AutumnHarvestwind]

snipsnop

Oh dear, for some reason I thought it was the other way around. Thank you for correcting me.
I find it interesting that the Garleans model themselves somewhat behind Allagan. I know the Garleans regard the primals with distaste, but this begs the question of how Allagan's viewed eikons. Of course, considering the triad and dalamund/bahamut, I think we could make the arguement that they saw primals ( eikons) as objective powersources. But did they hate, love, or were they indifferent to these forces of aetheric nature?

[Khalithar]

But did they hate, love, or were they indifferent to these forces of aetheric nature?

Hard to say, over time they might have seen the powerful creatures as dangerous enemies to be hated, then over time they were glad to see them as power sources they could steal and then utilize for their own needs.

[Anonymoose]

This looks like a job for Anonymoose!

**POOF** What!? Where am ... EIKONS? Ahhhh, fff—

I do believe that Allagans referred to primals as Eikons, and that's why the Garlean Empire calls primals Eikons.

Correct. The Allagans came up with the term, and the Garleans (who emulate the Allagans in as many ways as they can) figured they should start doing the same. However, there are some notable differences between what we call primals and what the Allagans called eikons. In their arrogance, Garlemald just seems to have not questioned whether they were using it as accurately as they could be.

With 3.2, we've seen confirmation that they're not that different, or even that unfamiliar. Sephirot even had interred tree-like beastmen like Bahamut's interred Meracydians. Honestly, to me, it seems like Eikon is the catch-all term for man-made gods (literally icons), whereas primals are specifically the set we're seeing today, with the difference being that the primals of today are based on the primordial forces of nature - the six elements. The eikons have a much broader set of origins and themes. (And, of course, something weird is up the rules and influence of worship.)

I also remember somewhere that Eikons are considered 'lowly' 'primals'.

I haven't seen this claim before, but it seems kind of odd. Can any of the primals stand up to any of the eikons we've encountered? Compare Ifrit to The Warring Triad. Putting down Garuda was child's play compared to even understanding how to deal with Odin. I suppose compared to the concept of one of the six primordial facets of the crystal, a concept like a sentient sword seems kind of simple. Perhaps in that light, one could see it that way. Still, it strikes me as an odd claim.

Could Bahamut being consider an Eikon for the allagans?

That's an interesting question, actually. One one hand, I would imagine so. Eikon is Allag's word and Bahamut isn't really a primordial force of nature so much as the resurrected shade of a Celestial Dragon. If Allag used eikon as an umbrella term, it seems only natural that's what they'd call him. Garlemald (incorrectly) uses the term interchangeably, but there seems to be some distinction to be made. At this point, though, that distinction looks to be a rather pedantic one. As far as modern Eorzeans are concerned, the term "Elder Primal" fits best until we know better. But yeah, it's possible. Odin has been called both.

Adding, why Odin could not end of being another of this big allagan "batteries" or "experimentations"?

The eikons were numerous; their fates are probably just as diverse. Hints abound that, after at least 10,000 years of the Astral/Umbral cycle, dozens if not hundreds of these beings are slumbering in the aetherial sea. And who knows how many were somehow preserved or might yet be resurrected. Belias was reborn from the memories of a job crystal, but thankfully only enough for one guy to make one egi (so far).

Odin was trapped in a crystal by an Allagan hero who perhaps didn't have access to that kind of high technology at the time. Perhaps it was after the Calamity - they do call him "The Last of the Allagans". Don't forget, either, that Yugiri stated that godlike beings do exist in Othard (the very same ones that gave the Empire so much trouble). So far removed from the modern Eorzean trend of representing the elements, who knows what they are. Perhaps they're more "eikon" than not.

I'm hoping for more than "The Allagans did it." for his origin story, though. The sword is said to have come from an Au Ra, after all.

Its not interesting that the all this powerfull beings <...> all came from Meracyadia?

For now, I'm chalking this up to coincidence. Azys Lla was a direct result of Allag - under the resurrected Xande - trying their hardest to subjugate the one landmass that resisted their rule. It makes sense that most things from around that time (including Dalamud) would be somehow related to Meracydia, whether it be the dragons of Tiamat and Bahamut's brood, or the beastmen that lived amongst them, or even (gods forbid) from the wandering races themselves.

But did they hate, love, or were they indifferent to these forces of aetheric nature?

My gil's on hate, mostly. Think about how eikons come about; in a word: desperation. Every primal we've ever seen was the result of a desperate plea for deliverance from fear. These are entities of faith and prayer and salvation. Allag had no use for that. They had gods, and they abandoned them for technology, seemingly without a step in between for actually trying to call them. They were confident and powerful; they inspired the rise of eikons in the societies they conquered - the same as Garlemald. In turn, of course, Allag harnessed them for power and the Summoners. But the people even turned on the Summoners in the end. Until we have any hints to the contrary, I would imagine that (to the average Allagan) eikon was synonymous with rebellion. Though maybe the rebellious factions had some use for them...

Hmmm.

[Frederick22]

But would be a being like Ifrit or Gaurda could have called Eikon for the allagans?
Or they used the word "primal" too for the lower ones?

Also Moose another reason of what on the 3rd astral seem to be numerous Eikons, could be beacuse on that time Hydaelyn was stronger than now? ( the light crystals as an example )
Somehow more aether concentrations and that caused to the summoning of much stronger entities than on actual days?

[Anonymoose]

But would be a being like Ifrit or Gaurda could have called Eikon for the allagans?

I couldn't say for sure; I can just ramble about the "maybe this" or "maybe that", to be honest. I found it interesting that the Ascian referred to Belias as an "elder primal" whereas he could have said eikon, considering the memories were Allagan, but we didn't throw that word around much at the time and the Ascian (read: the devs) perhaps chose to speak in modern terms. Belias, seemingly a being of Inferno (at least as far as Tristan imagined him), is our closest link to a "primal" of the Allagan age, and I'm not sure what they would have called him. But they did seem to use eikon as one big umbrella, as far as I can tell right now.

<...> could be beacuse o nthose time Hydaelyn was stronger than now?

I think that's a perfectly reasonable theory, yeah. Because Hydaelyn was stronger then, perhaps so, too, were the deiforms.
And perhaps more could be sustained.

[Frederick22]

It makes sense that most things from around that time (including Dalamud) would be somehow related to Meracydia, whether it be the dragons of Tiamat and Bahamut's brood, or the beastmen that lived amongst them, or even (gods forbid) from the wandering races themselves.

At this point it will not surprice me if we find out that Sophia ( Godess ) was summoned by the Miqotes, but I doubt that is true.

[Belhi]

I think we are still waiting on an actual clear definition of what a Eikon actually is as defined by the Allag. After all the original info we had suggested there might be a difference.

On possibility I've got rolling around in the back of my head is that the Journal in the Rising Stones mentions that Sephirot was actually a sacred tree turned into a Eikon. Considering Odin was actually infact a Warrior called Odin that turned into basically a Eikon version of himself, perhaps what makes an Eikon an Eikon is that unlike most primals we have dealt with, Eikon's are pre-existing beings effectively turned into primal versions of themselves. Not hosts like Iceheart and Thordan but the living being itself ascending to Eikonhood. Odin really remains the outlier in our understanding of Primals and Eikons cause his origins seem very different to all others we have dealt with (he took up a cursed sword and it turned him into a Eikon).