Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 11 to 13 of 13
  1. #11
    Player
    Physic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,616
    Character
    Bladed Arms
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Tetsaru View Post
    Well, here's my thoughts:

    The way that enmity is set up now, all it takes is a large spike in damage or curing in order to yank hate right off a gladiator tank. Here's the problem:

    All the other Disciples of War - Pugilist, Lancer, Archer, and Marauder (especially Marauder) - all generally do more damage than Gladiator.

    Disciples of Magic - Conjurer and Thaumaturge - can both do sudden bursts of damage with their spells, as well as cure for large amounts of health, especially now that Cure spells can crit now (at least, according to a friend of mine who normally uses Cure III to heal around 800-900 and then got a crit heal for around 1200).

    In order for a Gladiator to even come close to holding hate, they have to level up many other jobs to learn moves and traits, such as War Drum, Taunt, Intimidation, etc., which is really stupid, in my opinion. I can pop Provoke II, Taunt, Disorient, War Drum, Heavy Slash, Heavy Stab, AND Riot Blade while wearing my Sentinel's Sabatons and having Intimidation set that give +Enmity and STILL sometimes cannot get hate over other people who are actually doing their jobs like they're supposed to. I also use Phalanx II from time to time, but it becomes useless if the enemy's not focused on me, or if I don't get any blocks, which has also become a problem after the last patch. I've even gone so far recently as to make a Dated Maddening Dagger (which gives +25 Enmity now, by the way) and Maddening Potions to try and see if I can hold hate easier with it than with my Ul'Dahn Scimitar or Cobalt Winglet, but I have yet to test them.

    That said, here's what I would like to see happen in the future:

    1 - Give Gladiator an exclusive move similar to Provoke/Taunt/War Drum/Disorient (or adjust the existing moves) that IMMEDIATELY forces the enemy's hate towards you for a set amount of time, regardless of enmity. All the HP, defense, vitality, and moves like Sentinel/Rampart etc. a Gladiator has are completely useless if you can't get the enemy to focus on you instead of everyone else.

    2 - Allow Gladiators to block AND parry to lessen or negate damage. If other DoW's can parry and DoM's can use shields to block OR use two-handed weapons to parry, then GLA should be able to do both as a tanking job.

    3 - Adjust existing enmity algorithms so that Gladiators can tank more easily, other damage-dealers can keep doing their job without fear of pulling hate, and healers can use that desperately needed Curaga II to save everyone without getting KO'd immediately afterwards. I suspect this is already being worked on, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

    4 - Get rid of Riot Blade's Pacification effect and Rage of Halone's casting time. There's no need for them when other moves like Storm's Path can do a LOT more damage.

    5 - Intimidation needs to be a Gladiator or Sentinel trait, not a Marauder trait. Marauders should be hitting things with their axes for tons of damage, not tanking. Same could be said for a lot of other moves, like Speed Surge, Taunt, Decoy, etc. that would be PERFECT for a tank, but are instead wasted on other jobs that don't really need them as much. I don't mind playing as other jobs everyone once in a while, but I shouldn't have to level all the other combat jobs to 40+ just to be a decent tank. Put some of this stuff on Gladiator, or even better - Sentinel, since it doesn't have that many moves anyway.

    6 - Add more gear and/or materia that improves enmity, parrying, and block rates. I'd love to see something like a Blood Sword (all auto-attacks you perform heal you for the same amount) or some armor set other than the Sentinel gear that gives as much enmity as the Maddening Dagger, for instance.
    you are very wrong about other jobs not needing them much,

    taunt,
    pugilist skill. pugilist has half their skills dedicated to evasion tanking, even DD skills, Simian thrash, jarring strike, haymaker all require you to evade. feather foot boosts evasion (near useless if you never have hate) and light strike boosts evasion and defense for 10 seconds. Without taunt none of this makes sense. Also, pugilist has the shortest range, so a long range manuever to get an enemies attention is a strong part of their ability set.

    Speed surge is a DD and support ability in every respect dunno why thats on your list

    Decoy? is the perfect defensive move for a ranger, it is a long range shadow. the amount of times a glad would need that are few, and far between

    Marauder needs hate, its part of their build, marauder is good DD on multiple monsters, but it can only do that if the monsters are in one space, moving monsters are outside aoe cone, and moving a lot lowers its options for AoE, hence it needs to gather enemies, and keep their attention. Its also the same armor rating as glad.

    Thing people should realize, is glad has a specialty for tank, but its not the only class that is meant to take advantage of having hate, also, each class SHOULD imo have access to a variety of defensive moves, if not, then the classes cant do anything on their own without leveling every other class.

    So essentially its level every other class to be able to anything on your own.
    Or level some classes to do a highly specialized role

    i think leaning toward the second makes more sense.


    Now i think glad needs some improvements, but within its own move set, not by weakening others and making them useless and 1 dimensional classes.

    they need to give glad some more enmity skills, OR increase its dmg potential/healing potential. The current enmity list is based primarily on damage and cures for hate, skills are pretty low on the list. In this type of system, a glad doesnt have too many tools for keeping hate seeing as how its max damage/heal is pretty low.

    It also needs more of its control over blocking back, at the very least a feathefoot/parry like skill giving one high chance of block in a short time frame, maybe similar to featherfoot mp boost where after a sucessful block enmity up

    Also back when they were talking about a clear enmity meter, people paniced and complained, but it would be a lot more gratifying using enmity skills if it told you some quanifiable numbers. I can see a glad getting hyped using a skills and seeing +1000 anger! but seeing no quantifiable results doesnt encourage as much as being able to see an effect, thats one of the reasons people like DD, its a direct gratification, you see the hp bar go down, and some big numbers.

    I think seeing those enmity numbers, or something similar would make a lot more people enjoy tanking
    (1)

  2. #12
    Player
    Tetsaru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    331
    Character
    Tetsaru Arigashi
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Physic View Post
    you are very wrong about other jobs not needing them much,

    taunt,
    pugilist skill. pugilist has half their skills dedicated to evasion tanking, even DD skills, Simian thrash, jarring strike, haymaker all require you to evade. feather foot boosts evasion (near useless if you never have hate) and light strike boosts evasion and defense for 10 seconds. Without taunt none of this makes sense. Also, pugilist has the shortest range, so a long range manuever to get an enemies attention is a strong part of their ability set.
    Pug still does more damage with its weapon skills than Glad to hold hate (as I mentioned, EVERY job has a way of doing more damage than Glad), plus there's always throwing weapons, which no one ever uses. But I agree, it does help for the evasion aspects you mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Physic View Post
    Speed surge is a DD and support ability in every respect dunno why thats on your list
    Because it gives you HP when you hit the enemy, like the old Blood Swords in the old FF games. I could say the same for Marauder's Bloodbath. A tank's gotta keep his HP up while he's holding hate, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Physic View Post
    Decoy? is the perfect defensive move for a ranger, it is a long range shadow. the amount of times a glad would need that are few, and far between
    Shadows were why Ninjas could often out-tank Paladins in FF11. Granted, I only played FF11 for a few months, but I still find that absurd. Ninjas are all about speed and trickery, not being able to bear the full brunt of an attack. Giving them a move where they can take the hit and it not do anything to them... that sounds exactly what a REAL tank needs in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Physic View Post
    Marauder needs hate, its part of their build, marauder is good DD on multiple monsters, but it can only do that if the monsters are in one space, moving monsters are outside aoe cone, and moving a lot lowers its options for AoE, hence it needs to gather enemies, and keep their attention. Its also the same armor rating as glad.
    If you're soloing, then this isn't a problem - just like the evasion-based combat you mentioned with Pugilist. If you're partying, a good tank should be able to keep all the monsters in one place regardless and focused on him. Granted, Marauder's probably the closest thing to Gladiator in terms of tanking and perhaps in survivability, but then again, Marauder seems to have gotten a lot stronger overall with this patch, from what I've seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Physic View Post
    Thing people should realize, is glad has a specialty for tank, but its not the only class that is meant to take advantage of having hate, also, each class SHOULD imo have access to a variety of defensive moves, if not, then the classes cant do anything on their own without leveling every other class.
    Well apparently Gladiator still has to do that anyway to be viable in parties...

    Quote Originally Posted by Physic View Post
    So essentially its level every other class to be able to anything on your own.
    Or level some classes to do a highly specialized role

    i think leaning toward the second makes more sense.
    I just think that the "highly specialized role" should already be built into the class without having to level everything else, that's all. It's just a big pain when someone says "I want to be a tank!" and then another player says, "Ok, but you have to level EVERY JOB IN THE GAME in order to do that." To me, that takes the "role" out of a Role-Playing Game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Physic View Post
    Now i think glad needs some improvements, but within its own move set, not by weakening others and making them useless and 1 dimensional classes.

    they need to give glad some more enmity skills, OR increase its dmg potential/healing potential. The current enmity list is based primarily on damage and cures for hate, skills are pretty low on the list. In this type of system, a glad doesnt have too many tools for keeping hate seeing as how its max damage/heal is pretty low.

    It also needs more of its control over blocking back, at the very least a feathefoot/parry like skill giving one high chance of block in a short time frame, maybe similar to featherfoot mp boost where after a sucessful block enmity up

    Also back when they were talking about a clear enmity meter, people paniced and complained, but it would be a lot more gratifying using enmity skills if it told you some quanifiable numbers. I can see a glad getting hyped using a skills and seeing +1000 anger! but seeing no quantifiable results doesnt encourage as much as being able to see an effect, thats one of the reasons people like DD, its a direct gratification, you see the hp bar go down, and some big numbers.

    I think seeing those enmity numbers, or something similar would make a lot more people enjoy tanking
    I like the idea of putting enmity into a quantitative form so that you can see it easier. At least that way (with the current system), you could see exactly how much you're staying ahead or falling behind in terms of holding hate.
    (0)

  3. #13
    Player
    Physic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,616
    Character
    Bladed Arms
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Tetsaru View Post
    Pug still does more damage with its weapon skills than Glad to hold hate (as I mentioned, EVERY job has a way of doing more damage than Glad), plus there's always throwing weapons, which no one ever uses. But I agree, it does help for the evasion aspects you mentioned.



    Because it gives you HP when you hit the enemy, like the old Blood Swords in the old FF games. I could say the same for Marauder's Bloodbath. A tank's gotta keep his HP up while he's holding hate, right?



    Shadows were why Ninjas could often out-tank Paladins in FF11. Granted, I only played FF11 for a few months, but I still find that absurd. Ninjas are all about speed and trickery, not being able to bear the full brunt of an attack. Giving them a move where they can take the hit and it not do anything to them... that sounds exactly what a REAL tank needs in my opinion.



    If you're soloing, then this isn't a problem - just like the evasion-based combat you mentioned with Pugilist. If you're partying, a good tank should be able to keep all the monsters in one place regardless and focused on him. Granted, Marauder's probably the closest thing to Gladiator in terms of tanking and perhaps in survivability, but then again, Marauder seems to have gotten a lot stronger overall with this patch, from what I've seen.



    Well apparently Gladiator still has to do that anyway to be viable in parties...



    I just think that the "highly specialized role" should already be built into the class without having to level everything else, that's all. It's just a big pain when someone says "I want to be a tank!" and then another player says, "Ok, but you have to level EVERY JOB IN THE GAME in order to do that." To me, that takes the "role" out of a Role-Playing Game.



    I like the idea of putting enmity into a quantitative form so that you can see it easier. At least that way (with the current system), you could see exactly how much you're staying ahead or falling behind in terms of holding hate.

    theres a similar thread where i said what im a bout to say, (maybe to you im not sure) but gladiators tank specialty is supposed to be master of one on one damage mitigation, with the flavor of using shields to further that. In that respect, it is the master of its domain. No one can reduce damage versus one monster as well as a gladiator can. And most of its skills work well within that frame.

    to get some better multi target tanking skills, you get marauder skills , to get more distraction self heal power you get pug skills heck to get the while casting/magic dmg reduction you get thaum.

    the ultimate all around tanks will make use of all the skills, but the ultimate tank is dipping into every defensive and enmity skill set in the game.

    Paladin will probably be better than gladiator or marauder, so it will probably combine marauders strength and gladiators strength, basically being the best single/multitarget damage reduction enmity in the game. but notice that even then, pld will require you to level marauder to level 15.

    Simply put its a game where you will always try to level multiple classes to maximize your power. The idea is taking multiple skills from various disciplines to become a master. Its also probably why they have made getting SP a lot more speedy.

    But like i said, gladiator is currently falling behind in being able to actually keep the attention of one monster, and its style of doing with a shield is currently impaired, so it does need some changes. However taking away or altering these other jobs skills, will only lead to them having a huge hole in their playstyles as well.


    Oh yeah and what i noticed about glad, it has no native heals, so apparently it isnt that type of self healing tank build. I wonder if paladin will be, taking from marauder and gladiator, it seems like it wont
    (0)

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2

Tags for this Thread