What is so bad about FFXI?

[Jennestia]

So I'm sorry if it deviated too far from your safety zone but artists need to keep things fresh.

Artists also improve over time, even if they keep the same technique, they don't degrade.

[Gramul]

[...] it also cannot keep making steps backward to FFXI, and that's generally what people like myself are afraid of. FFXIV has made some strides and progress in the industry (and many of those are due to deviating from FFXI) and I don't want to see FFXIV moonwalk back to the dinosaur era, erasing all the "progress" they've already made.

What is this? I hope you're not implying that simply because it's old it's invalid.

And what steps "forward" did XIV make from XI? What has XIV done that has invalidated the features and gameplay XI had that has let it live for so long?

And why are they more valid? Because you like them more? Because they make the game easier in places you prefer?

There are few things that can be objectively defined as far as games go. Preference is not one of them.

[Physic]

XI is fine, but i dont want to play XI here, i left xi because i was bored with that style. This game should find its own direction and strengths, like ever other FF title did, aside from the -2s

[ellohwell]

What is this? I hope you're not implying that simply because it's old it's invalid.

And what steps "forward" did XIV make from XI? What has XIV done that has invalidated the features and gameplay XI had that has let it live for so long?

And why are they more valid? Because you like them more? Because they make the game easier in places you prefer?

There are few things that can be objectively defined as far as games go. Preference is not one of them.

It's not invalid because it's old. It's invalid because it's an entirely different game and therefore many of the principles cannot be converted over to a new game without it conflicting terribly with the pre-existing systems (which we are now seeing happening). Some can be brought over, sure, but many would destroy FFXIV as we know it (which Im sure you'd love, but I sure wouldn't).

I'd welcome better search function and so on, but there are a lot of things from FFXI which were awful and could have been improved upon. And SE did improve upon them when they made FFXIV. For example, in FFXI, crafting was inaccessible, practically. You really had to be committed and rich to be able to do it. In FFXIV they really tried to bring life to this aspect of gameplay, even giving it its own minigame. (Sure they dumbed it down after patch 1.19 and it's not even really gameplay anymore, it's just something you download a bot for, but there was a point where it actually was gameplay).

My point is, this is an improvement upon FFXI.

Another improvement upon FFXI is how I no longer just wait around for TP to build up. In FFXI, that's what they called a "combat system". Believe it or not.

In FFXI chocobos were on a timer and the developers hated fun. Everything was a punishment. (inb4 fatigue)

I realise FFXIV isn't perfect, but FFXI was far from it too. So that's why I would suggest leaving FFXI out of it completely, and just trying to argue for individual features on their own merits rather than make blanket assumptions about FFXI being perfect and therefore every single thing about the game needs to have a FFXIV equivalent, even if it ends up destroying FFXIV.

I could go on but you're a lost cause Gramul, tbh.

You shouldn't have bought a game you hated (FFXIV). You should have stuck with games like FFXI and Everquest. God knows there are lots of them to choose from.

I mean, I try and I try to save FFXIV but the Jennestias and the Gramuls of this world seem always to come in here and try to destroy FFXIV just so they can relive their FFXI glory days.

[Reliquia]

Page 4

You aren't listening to what's being said, no one expecting the game to take a trip into the Jurassic era, whatever you meant by that. Gaming elements from the NES era is actually behind the core concept of both FFXI and FFXIV. We are saying rather than cloning a something that worked exceptionally well in FFXI, look at it, take it into consideration, if it's a go then adapt and build on it and then implement it.

This doesn't mean that the devs can't be creative, bring in own ideas and elements is also very important. But if they can't come up with a better new system, continue to improve and innovate an already existing concept.

If something can still bring the joy now as it did back then, then why not do it. There's a saying, if it ain't broken don't fix it. Why we look into FFXI as a reference point has already been said, same company, same gaming series and same line of MMOs. You might be worried that this game takes steps into what you didn't like about FFXI, and you are more than entitled to that because it's reasonable. However you are not alone, we are all concerned about the game taking direction that we don't like.

[ellohwell]

I guess another thing is:

FFXIV could look back to games like WoW or FFXI or it could look to the future and be inventive. Being reflective on the past is good, and like Jennestia says, learning from the past is also good, but being stuck in the past isn't!

I don't mean to play the Guild Wars 2 card, or the ArcheAge card, but there are certain MMOs on the horizon which are being inventive and breaking new ground in the industry.

Looking back to FFXI will not allow the devs to look forward and be creative with content, which the developers of ArcheAge and GW2 clearly were. There are features in both those games which are pretty unprecedented in MMOs.

So looking back to FFXI and fixating exclusively on that can be dangerous for the future of FFXIV if it puts blinders on the dev's creativity.

Fortunately by the looks of some of the stuff coming with 2.0 (like PvP siege and the group summon abilities), it looks like they still have some inventiveness left in them after all. But I guess that's my point. A lot of the stuff coming with 2.0 aren't features from FFXI, and FFXIV is none the poorer for that.

[Frein]

This. There is no reason to use the GOOD ideas that came from FFXI and improve it in FFXIV.

Key examples of what is good in FFXI:

*Assaults
*Party Search Feature (which is finally coming)
*Campaign/Beseiged
*Endgames that required specific strategy, such as salvage, minus the crappy drop rate.
*Innovative NM fights. (Ifrit is by far a great example of this)
*Bazaar including bazaar message.
*ARena style fights, such as BCNM, KSNM and so on.

Whoa! Let's not get totally out of control here!

CoP era FFXI was my favourite MMO of all time (until ToAU came along and killed it), but at no point did FFXI have good endgame. Ifrit in FFXIV is a more complex and involving fight than just about anything in FFXI, yet bosses on his level and above have existed in WoW pretty much since its launch.

Also, FFXI had a lot of gimmicky content encapsuled into their own "systems", like Salvage, Assault, Fields of Valor, Einherjar, etc, etc. To me they felt disconnected from what I considered to be the main game and those ideas could have been implemented a lot more seamlessly.

[Gramul]

In FFXI chocobos were on a timer and the developers hated fun. Everything was a punishment. (inb4 fatigue)

I beg your pardon madam, but I believe you're full of it.

Developers hated fun? Really? I had no idea the hours and hours of fun I had playing FFXI where all imaginary.

Considering the developer and their history with MMO's, there are certain things many of us have come to expect, nice things, things we like. Things like progression based gameplay, strategy over skill, multiplayer focus in a multiplayer game, fantastic areas abundant and varied, a game where you can't see almost everything from the start.

People have different tastes. What you think are improvements other people could easily consider them to be a step back. All I'm asking of you is to consider the idea that people hold different views not out of ignorance, but out of preference.

"Forward thinking" implies you're moving in a direction that leads to a goal. For video games, that goal is simply to entertain. Considering the fact that people can still be entertained by even something as archaic as NES games, I'd say the goal has been reached.
Any direction that still entertains is a fine direction. If anything, we're looking to test our boundaries, and if that means we can take somethings people have liked, and still do, then why not? It won't hold us back, if anything it will help us explore how far we can go. It can give us a strong and stable foundation to build our tower to the heavens.

[MANTASTIC]

Get off XI's nuts, seriously. The same design decisions that worked nearly a decade ago are not going to hold up in this day and age, especially when considering the competition and 14's terribad launch.

[Preypacer]

Standing around or AFK in almost everything you do.

That's what's wrong with FF11. Shouldn't a game be fun. At least to the point where you're actually playing the game. Not wanting to leech & afk (not just talking about leveling either).

Back when FF11 first started the older mentality was nothing like this. We're in a day & age where we need time sinks without them seeming like time sinks.
SE has to find a way to psychologically mind-fuck people into doing long content.
It needs to be something we actually feel like doing & progression is clear/"fun". Not a dull chore.

When I read posts like this I can't help but think they're leaning clear into the "hyperbolic" end of things.

For one, your last paragraph sorta comes across as you saying "people have to be told what to do and tricked into having fun, 'cause they can't figure it how on their own.". It's a terribly cynical perspective... but not necessarily one without merit. However, I also don't think that entirely lays at SE's feet.

As for your description of FFXI... It certainly doesn't sound like the FFXI I played. For at least 90% of the time I played FFXI (from US PC launch up to just before Abyssea with a few breaks along the way), I had a ball. Only thing that ever got to me was some of the people I encountered.

I never stood around doing nothing unless that's exactly what I wanted to do. If I wanted to get an xp party and invites weren't coming as quickly, I'd try to assemble a party instead.

If it wasn't xp parties, I'd be doing something else.. like crafting, or putting together Assault groups, or working on lower level jobs.. or working on missions/quests I wanted to get done. There was always something to do in FFXI. You almost never had to stand around doing nothing... unless you chose to.

Notice how in the majority of complaints you hear about parties in XI, it entails the person complaining "standing around waiting for a party"? Their problem is contained right in their own complaint, and the solution was right in their own grasp.

The people I knew who tended to wait for others to invite them did tend to stand around waiting a lot. And oh how they complained, blaming SE, blaming the game, blaming their job.. blaming everyone and everything but themselves.

Meanwhile, those who chose to take the initiative and form parties were out xp'ing.

The problem largely lay in people wanting everything to come to them without effort or initiative on their part (as is the case with a lot of gamers these days, is it not?).

I had a good friend in FFXI who leveled not one, but two characters from scratch, getting all jobs - including the unpopular ones - from 1 to 75 in less time than many others would require. Why? She took initiative. She didn't stand around waiting for the invites to come to her... She sent the invites out herself. And before someone says "well she was a girl so it would be easier for her".. most people didn't know she was a female until after they were grouped with her.. if they ever found out at all. She didn't use her gender to get an easier ride.

She put as many hours into the game as many others did. The difference is, while others stood around complaining about "no invites", she was putting groups together.

I remember a discussion in LS one night where people were bitching about how long it took to get parties and were surprised at how she was always in a party, or going after a HNM, and generally always making progress. Her answer pissed half the LS off (those complaining) but it was absolutely true: "I make all this progress because I don't stand around with my thumb up my ass waiting for others to come to me so I can play the game".

Of course people in the LS argued with her left and right that she was wrong, that it had nothing to do with standing around, etc. But at the end of the day... the proof is in the pudding. She was assertive, took the initiative and didn't wait to be called on. If she wanted something, she grabbed the proverbial bull by the horns and made it happen. That was the only difference between her and the people sitting around in Jeuno "for hours" with their seek flags up.