What is so bad about FFXI?

[Preypacer]

Standing around or AFK in almost everything you do.

That's what's wrong with FF11. Shouldn't a game be fun. At least to the point where you're actually playing the game. Not wanting to leech & afk (not just talking about leveling either).

Back when FF11 first started the older mentality was nothing like this. We're in a day & age where we need time sinks without them seeming like time sinks.
SE has to find a way to psychologically mind-fuck people into doing long content.
It needs to be something we actually feel like doing & progression is clear/"fun". Not a dull chore.

When I read posts like this I can't help but think they're leaning clear into the "hyperbolic" end of things.

For one, your last paragraph sorta comes across as you saying "people have to be told what to do and tricked into having fun, 'cause they can't figure it how on their own.". It's a terribly cynical perspective... but not necessarily one without merit. However, I also don't think that entirely lays at SE's feet.

As for your description of FFXI... It certainly doesn't sound like the FFXI I played. For at least 90% of the time I played FFXI (from US PC launch up to just before Abyssea with a few breaks along the way), I had a ball. Only thing that ever got to me was some of the people I encountered.

I never stood around doing nothing unless that's exactly what I wanted to do. If I wanted to get an xp party and invites weren't coming as quickly, I'd try to assemble a party instead.

If it wasn't xp parties, I'd be doing something else.. like crafting, or putting together Assault groups, or working on lower level jobs.. or working on missions/quests I wanted to get done. There was always something to do in FFXI. You almost never had to stand around doing nothing... unless you chose to.

Notice how in the majority of complaints you hear about parties in XI, it entails the person complaining "standing around waiting for a party"? Their problem is contained right in their own complaint, and the solution was right in their own grasp.

The people I knew who tended to wait for others to invite them did tend to stand around waiting a lot. And oh how they complained, blaming SE, blaming the game, blaming their job.. blaming everyone and everything but themselves.

Meanwhile, those who chose to take the initiative and form parties were out xp'ing.

The problem largely lay in people wanting everything to come to them without effort or initiative on their part (as is the case with a lot of gamers these days, is it not?).

I had a good friend in FFXI who leveled not one, but two characters from scratch, getting all jobs - including the unpopular ones - from 1 to 75 in less time than many others would require. Why? She took initiative. She didn't stand around waiting for the invites to come to her... She sent the invites out herself. And before someone says "well she was a girl so it would be easier for her".. most people didn't know she was a female until after they were grouped with her.. if they ever found out at all. She didn't use her gender to get an easier ride.

She put as many hours into the game as many others did. The difference is, while others stood around complaining about "no invites", she was putting groups together.

I remember a discussion in LS one night where people were bitching about how long it took to get parties and were surprised at how she was always in a party, or going after a HNM, and generally always making progress. Her answer pissed half the LS off (those complaining) but it was absolutely true: "I make all this progress because I don't stand around with my thumb up my ass waiting for others to come to me so I can play the game".

Of course people in the LS argued with her left and right that she was wrong, that it had nothing to do with standing around, etc. But at the end of the day... the proof is in the pudding. She was assertive, took the initiative and didn't wait to be called on. If she wanted something, she grabbed the proverbial bull by the horns and made it happen. That was the only difference between her and the people sitting around in Jeuno "for hours" with their seek flags up.

[Physic]

When I read posts like this I can't help but think they're leaning clear into the "hyperbolic" end of things.

For one, your last paragraph sorta comes across as you saying "people have to be told what to do and tricked into having fun, 'cause they can't figure it how on their own.". It's a terribly cynical perspective... but not necessarily one without merit. However, I also don't think that entirely lays at SE's feet.

As for your description of FFXI... It certainly doesn't sound like the FFXI I played. For at least 90% of the time I played FFXI (from US PC launch up to just before Abyssea with a few breaks along the way), I had a ball. Only thing that ever got to me was some of the people I encountered.

I never stood around doing nothing unless that's exactly what I wanted to do. If I wanted to get an xp party and invites weren't coming as quickly, I'd try to assemble a party instead.

If it wasn't xp parties, I'd be doing something else.. like crafting, or putting together Assault groups, or working on lower level jobs.. or working on missions/quests I wanted to get done. There was always something to do in FFXI. You almost never had to stand around doing nothing... unless you chose to.

Notice how in the majority of complaints you hear about parties in XI, it entails the person complaining "standing around waiting for a party"? Their problem is contained right in their own complaint, and the solution was right in their own grasp.

The people I knew who tended to wait for others to invite them did tend to stand around waiting a lot. And oh how they complained, blaming SE, blaming the game, blaming their job.. blaming everyone and everything but themselves.

Meanwhile, those who chose to take the initiative and form parties were out xp'ing.

The problem largely lay in people wanting everything to come to them without effort or initiative on their part (as is the case with a lot of gamers these days, is it not?).

I had a good friend in FFXI who leveled not one, but two characters from scratch, getting all jobs - including the unpopular ones - from 1 to 75 in less time than many others would require. Why? She took initiative. She didn't stand around waiting for the invites to come to her... She sent the invites out herself. And before someone says "well she was a girl so it would be easier for her".. most people didn't know she was a female until after they were grouped with her.. if they ever found out at all. She didn't use her gender to get an easier ride.

She put as many hours into the game as many others did. The difference is, while others stood around complaining about "no invites", she was putting groups together.

I remember a discussion in LS one night where people were bitching about how long it took to get parties and were surprised at how she was always in a party, or going after a HNM, and generally always making progress. Her answer pissed half the LS off (those complaining) but it was absolutely true: "I make all this progress because I don't stand around with my thumb up my ass waiting for others to come to me so I can play the game".

Of course people in the LS argued with her left and right that she was wrong, that it had nothing to do with standing around, etc. But at the end of the day... the proof is in the pudding. She was assertive, took the initiative and didn't wait to be called on. If she wanted something, she grabbed the proverbial bull by the horns and made it happen. That was the only difference between her and the people sitting around in Jeuno "for hours" with their seek flags up.

putting things together in ffxi was a tremendous hassle, full of ignorance arrogance elitism etc. It wasnt easy, unless you had a core group. The fact is it always took way longer to prepare to do something in ffxi, than it did to do it. Some things just made no sense, like the beastmen seal fight with gods, required 12-18 people, and yet, it would be almost impossible to do them 12 to 18 times in one sitting, so then you have to spend time trying to figure out how to distribute the rewards on what would be a substantial investment of time.

FFXI had it strengths, but it definitely had its weaknesses, and i would let this game have its own strengths and weaknesses, without trying to recreate FFXI, like many people have probably said, the FF idealogy is not one of sequels, just because YOU like i specific final fantasy doesnt mean every final fantasy should follow the same format. Take it or leave it, it is not XI, and it should never become XI, going by their previous design philosophy, and what makes sense while the XI product is still in circulation and viable.

There is no reason to make an XI-2 when XI is still around.

[Jennestia]

There is no reason to make an XI-2 when XI is still around.

Which again, not one person has truly ever said -- Unless of course one is willing to admit that every MMORPG that has a similar interface is indeed a direct sequel of another MMO. For example Rappelz is clearly a Lineage II-2, it's undeniable.

Honestly, most people have specifically said take what worked in FFXI, i.e PARTY SEARCH and made it better, as well as taking content concepts, i.e Assault/Nyzul/Einherjar systems, as in point based raid systems, how is that making it FFXI-2?

Then again, Imperial Assaults are very reminiscent of the campaign system, so in a roundabout way, it's already FFXI-2 in that logic.

[Physic]

Which again, not one person has truly ever said -- Unless of course one is willing to admit that every MMORPG that has a similar interface is indeed a direct sequel of another MMO. For example Rappelz is clearly a Lineage II-2, it's undeniable.

Honestly, most people have specifically said take what worked in FFXI, i.e PARTY SEARCH and made it better, as well as taking content concepts, i.e Assault/Nyzul/Einherjar systems, as in point based raid systems, how is that making it FFXI-2?

Then again, Imperial Assaults are very reminiscent of the campaign system, so in a roundabout way, it's already FFXI-2 in that logic.

the point of the poster is that ffxi was good and they want more ffxi in ffxiv. This does not need to be the case, im not saying an FFXI-2 would suck, but there is no reason to make this game ffxi-2.

Party search is not an FFXI thing, it isnt what defines ffxi. Assualt nyzul and einherjar, well depends what you mean, nyzul is basically the tower climb mechanic, common in many RPGs Einherjar is basically similar but not shaped like a tower.

In all honesty this game is shaping up to offer something different and interesting, party versus party combat, if what yoshi says occurs happens, more story, materia offering more customization, a fairly different place in the heirarchy for crafting and gathering. This game has its own strengths to build on, they need to continue to build on that. They shouldnt it make the game into ffxi, and by ffxi im talking about party only play, overall lacklusterness of each class on its own, most high level content requiring large amounts of players in the same place at the same time, copies of unique ffxi systems, or monsters (one of the worst things they did was directly jack FFXI for monster models, i hope it stops here)

FFXI was cool, but this game can be its own game, it doesnt need to copy ffxi. why should it? ffxi was 1 out of 14 final fantasies, and it probably wasnt even the best selling one.

[Quanta]

The problem largely lay in people wanting everything to come to them without effort or initiative on their part (as is the case with a lot of gamers these days, is it not?).

Bullshit. For me, a lot of it had to do with the fact that, after a time, nobody was using the seeking system anymore to express their intent to actually, you know, want to party and gain exp. It rendered the system useless for the purposes of recruitment, leaving the only recourse to bother as many people as possible until you managed to form a group. I got plenty of requests to group from random strangers while I played, and I turned many of them down. The problem? I wasn't flagged, so why the fuck were you asking me to group with you when there were usually a half-dozen other folks with their flags up looking to gain exp that day?

Things ultimately fell apart for me because the system as designed didn't work as it was supposed to, and I didn't want to bother the people who didn't have their flag up as I had no way to gauge their intent or desires beforehand; I could either get lucky and they actually did want to group, or I could get a "No thanks" and resume the search, or I could get a "Fuck off" and feel bad 'cuz I obviously bothered someone.

In short, the system that told people "Yeah, sure, I'd like to group" was at odds with the social dynamics of the game's players, putting people who didn't understand those dynamics at a disadvantage when forming groups for pretty much everything in the game. If people had actually used the tool instead of going "Well, I'm sure some random stranger will ask me to do stuff at some point, or maybe I'll ask random strangers myself regardless of interest," people might have enjoyed FFXI better than they did. Fuck your initiative, you insensitive prick.