What is so bad about FFXI?

[ellohwell]

The words FFXI aren't taboo.

But using FFXI as a reference point for every idea just makes you look unworldly and set-in-your-ways. If it's convenient to use FFXI as an example of how something "should be done" then go right ahead, but it's better to discuss the concept in isolation without drawing inspiration from other sources. It comes across as lacking imagination/independent thought to go about referencing other games too much.

I would suggest trying to limit discussions to the concept rather than the technical implementation of the thing.

If you want to talk about non-instanced zones or something, then talk about that, but don't go on and on about Sarutabaruta or some *** like you never got over FFXI. (This is just general advice.)

The take home message being: there is a time and place to reference other games, and sometimes it's convenient to do so, but FFXI wasn't a perfect game (basically just an everquest clone with better atmosphere), so you injure your argument/discussion by clinging to FFXI as proof that your idea should have merit.

I liked FFXI but only around 50% of it. The other 50% was seriously flawed.

[Jennestia]

The words FFXI aren't taboo.

But using FFXI as a reference point for every idea just makes you look unworldly and set-in-your-ways. If it's convenient to use FFXI as an example of how something "should be done" then go right ahead, but it's better to discuss the concept in isolation without drawing inspiration from other sources.

So, being Final Fantasy XI, an MMORPG made by Square Enix which had almost the same general development team, including directional leads of the previous one isn't one of the 'best" reference sources to use? Even FFII built off of the basics FFI laid and did something new (the battle system we all ABSOLUTELY LOVED! (Sarcasm btw.))

This is why people reference FFXI, because they took a lot of steps backwards from XI instead of taking the logical steps forward. Search system for example, they could have easily taken the search system from XI and built the Recruit system around it, we'd have an easier lfg system as well as a recruit system.

but FFXI wasn't a perfect game

No MMORPG was a perfect game, but people will easily deny that it did anything right. Also:

basically just an everquest clone with better atmosphere

In 2001, Tanaka stated he was inspired by Everquest and used Final Fantasy III (or V) as a base for the world, so yeah, it is a clone, but it's a Final Fantasy based clone, which is why when XIV rolled around, people reference XI because realistically, comparing the two, they should have left XIV as 'Rapture', since the namesake of Final Fantasy generally makes people expect certain things to be in line, which Final Fantasy XI did a good job at bringing in a lot of Final Fantasy aspects.

Much like when I played World of Warcraft, I expected quite a bit of Warcraft lore and feeling.

[ellohwell]

So, being Final Fantasy XI, an MMORPG made by Square Enix which had almost the same general development team, including directional leads of the previous one isn't one of the 'best" reference sources to use? Even FFII built off of the basics FFI laid and did something new (the battle system we all ABSOLUTELY LOVED! (Sarcasm btw.))

Somebody clearly understood what I was saying (sarcasm btw).

This is why people reference FFXI, because they took a lot of steps backwards from XI instead of taking the logical steps forward. Search system for example, they could have easily taken the search system from XI and built the Recruit system around it, we'd have an easier lfg system as well as a recruit system.

FFXIV took some step backwards from FFXI but it also cannot keep making steps backward to FFXI, and that's generally what people like myself are afraid of. FFXIV has made some strides and progress in the industry (and many of those are due to deviating from FFXI) and I don't want to see FFXIV moonwalk back to the dinosaur era, erasing all the progress they've already made.

FFXI had a better search feature, granted, and so maybe in the future you should limit yourself to making the suggestion that FFXIV implement a search feature with "x, y, z elements" because of "a,b,c reasons".

Just flat-out saying "ffxi was better than FFXIV and therefore FFXIV should be like FFXI every way" is what myself and others like me cannot stomach. We don't want the game to revert back to the FFXI standard, because despite what some might say, FFXIV made many steps forward, even though it did take a few steps backwards too (the search feature being one such backward step).

In 2001, Tanaka stated he was inspired by Everquest and used Final Fantasy III (or V) as a base for the world, so yeah, it is a clone, but it's a Final Fantasy based clone, which is why when XIV rolled around, people reference XI because realistically, comparing the two, they should have left XIV as 'Rapture', since the namesake of Final Fantasy generally makes people expect certain things to be in line, which Final Fantasy XI did a good job at bringing in a lot of Final Fantasy aspects.

Much like when I played World of Warcraft, I expected quite a bit of Warcraft lore and feeling.

You were actually kind of starting to make sense until you launched into this tirade about what "Final fantasy should be" like you're the boss of Final Fantasy. I think if anyone gets to decide what final fantasy can and should be it's Tanaka or anyone else at SE.

One might expect certain things of a FF game, but one also expects the unexpected from a FF game. So I'm sorry if it deviated too far from your safety zone but artists need to keep things fresh.

[Jennestia]

So I'm sorry if it deviated too far from your safety zone but artists need to keep things fresh.

Artists also improve over time, even if they keep the same technique, they don't degrade.

[Gramul]

[...] it also cannot keep making steps backward to FFXI, and that's generally what people like myself are afraid of. FFXIV has made some strides and progress in the industry (and many of those are due to deviating from FFXI) and I don't want to see FFXIV moonwalk back to the dinosaur era, erasing all the "progress" they've already made.

What is this? I hope you're not implying that simply because it's old it's invalid.

And what steps "forward" did XIV make from XI? What has XIV done that has invalidated the features and gameplay XI had that has let it live for so long?

And why are they more valid? Because you like them more? Because they make the game easier in places you prefer?

There are few things that can be objectively defined as far as games go. Preference is not one of them.

[ellohwell]

What is this? I hope you're not implying that simply because it's old it's invalid.

And what steps "forward" did XIV make from XI? What has XIV done that has invalidated the features and gameplay XI had that has let it live for so long?

And why are they more valid? Because you like them more? Because they make the game easier in places you prefer?

There are few things that can be objectively defined as far as games go. Preference is not one of them.

It's not invalid because it's old. It's invalid because it's an entirely different game and therefore many of the principles cannot be converted over to a new game without it conflicting terribly with the pre-existing systems (which we are now seeing happening). Some can be brought over, sure, but many would destroy FFXIV as we know it (which Im sure you'd love, but I sure wouldn't).

I'd welcome better search function and so on, but there are a lot of things from FFXI which were awful and could have been improved upon. And SE did improve upon them when they made FFXIV. For example, in FFXI, crafting was inaccessible, practically. You really had to be committed and rich to be able to do it. In FFXIV they really tried to bring life to this aspect of gameplay, even giving it its own minigame. (Sure they dumbed it down after patch 1.19 and it's not even really gameplay anymore, it's just something you download a bot for, but there was a point where it actually was gameplay).

My point is, this is an improvement upon FFXI.

Another improvement upon FFXI is how I no longer just wait around for TP to build up. In FFXI, that's what they called a "combat system". Believe it or not.

In FFXI chocobos were on a timer and the developers hated fun. Everything was a punishment. (inb4 fatigue)

I realise FFXIV isn't perfect, but FFXI was far from it too. So that's why I would suggest leaving FFXI out of it completely, and just trying to argue for individual features on their own merits rather than make blanket assumptions about FFXI being perfect and therefore every single thing about the game needs to have a FFXIV equivalent, even if it ends up destroying FFXIV.

I could go on but you're a lost cause Gramul, tbh.

You shouldn't have bought a game you hated (FFXIV). You should have stuck with games like FFXI and Everquest. God knows there are lots of them to choose from.

I mean, I try and I try to save FFXIV but the Jennestias and the Gramuls of this world seem always to come in here and try to destroy FFXIV just so they can relive their FFXI glory days.

[Gramul]

In FFXI chocobos were on a timer and the developers hated fun. Everything was a punishment. (inb4 fatigue)

I beg your pardon madam, but I believe you're full of it.

Developers hated fun? Really? I had no idea the hours and hours of fun I had playing FFXI where all imaginary.

Considering the developer and their history with MMO's, there are certain things many of us have come to expect, nice things, things we like. Things like progression based gameplay, strategy over skill, multiplayer focus in a multiplayer game, fantastic areas abundant and varied, a game where you can't see almost everything from the start.

People have different tastes. What you think are improvements other people could easily consider them to be a step back. All I'm asking of you is to consider the idea that people hold different views not out of ignorance, but out of preference.

"Forward thinking" implies you're moving in a direction that leads to a goal. For video games, that goal is simply to entertain. Considering the fact that people can still be entertained by even something as archaic as NES games, I'd say the goal has been reached.
Any direction that still entertains is a fine direction. If anything, we're looking to test our boundaries, and if that means we can take somethings people have liked, and still do, then why not? It won't hold us back, if anything it will help us explore how far we can go. It can give us a strong and stable foundation to build our tower to the heavens.

[ellohwell]

I guess another thing is:

FFXIV could look back to games like WoW or FFXI or it could look to the future and be inventive. Being reflective on the past is good, and like Jennestia says, learning from the past is also good, but being stuck in the past isn't!

I don't mean to play the Guild Wars 2 card, or the ArcheAge card, but there are certain MMOs on the horizon which are being inventive and breaking new ground in the industry.

Looking back to FFXI will not allow the devs to look forward and be creative with content, which the developers of ArcheAge and GW2 clearly were. There are features in both those games which are pretty unprecedented in MMOs.

So looking back to FFXI and fixating exclusively on that can be dangerous for the future of FFXIV if it puts blinders on the dev's creativity.

Fortunately by the looks of some of the stuff coming with 2.0 (like PvP siege and the group summon abilities), it looks like they still have some inventiveness left in them after all. But I guess that's my point. A lot of the stuff coming with 2.0 aren't features from FFXI, and FFXIV is none the poorer for that.

[Reliquia]

Page 4

You aren't listening to what's being said, no one expecting the game to take a trip into the Jurassic era, whatever you meant by that. Gaming elements from the NES era is actually behind the core concept of both FFXI and FFXIV. We are saying rather than cloning a something that worked exceptionally well in FFXI, look at it, take it into consideration, if it's a go then adapt and build on it and then implement it.

This doesn't mean that the devs can't be creative, bring in own ideas and elements is also very important. But if they can't come up with a better new system, continue to improve and innovate an already existing concept.

If something can still bring the joy now as it did back then, then why not do it. There's a saying, if it ain't broken don't fix it. Why we look into FFXI as a reference point has already been said, same company, same gaming series and same line of MMOs. You might be worried that this game takes steps into what you didn't like about FFXI, and you are more than entitled to that because it's reasonable. However you are not alone, we are all concerned about the game taking direction that we don't like.