What is so bad about FFXI?

[Reliquia]

Looking at the attitude some players have and the constant reassurances from Yoshi that "FFXIV is not going to be FFXI-2" I feel puzzled. I get the impression that the words FFXI have become taboo and that they are avoided like the plague.

Please, before I'm being criticized take a look at my entire post. I come to you in a civilized and respective manner and I expect the same in return.
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First I want you to take a look at the direction of the game:
When FFXIV first came out it failed to meet both the customers and the critics expectations, this was mostly in it's largest proportion because the game was unfinished in content, balancing and polishing, but also because players didn't recognize themselves in this "Final Fantasy" world. Tanaka wanted to bring something new and he failed in the process.

When we take a look in which way the direction the game is taking under Yoshi P we see that he's reuniting us with the Final Fantasy feeling of the game. And this is incredibly important, most players who are still playing this are doing so because of the associations they have with the Final Fantasy genre, the work through the years of Squaresoft/Square-Enix and because of the MMO Final Fantasy XI. However it's not entirely unthinkable that some are just here because they like some of the promising unique mechanics that this game has shown.

Secondly, where does FFXI fit?:
A lot of the success achieved by the Final Fantasy games aside from the new stories and characters has been the returning elements such as chocobo's, cactuars, Cid, Japanese roleplaying elements, story elements and so forth. This is where Final Fantasy XI did well and this is what I think that FFXIV has to learn from.

But, there's something else. Final Fantasy XI has become part of the identity of the Final Fantasy genre. It has added elements to the Final Fantasy legacy and it's the ONLY Final Fantasy MMO out to this date, mind you also a great success. Final Fantasy XI has been out for about 10 years and there are still active paying subscribers. The game might be showing it's date but that doesn't mean that there's not a lot FFXIV will benefit from by looking back on this game.

Thirdly, FFXI and other MMOs:
A lot of you come from other MMOs such as WOW, and some of you expect this game to take elements from these MMOs the same way that some of use expect this game to take elements from FFXI. There are plenty of other WoW clones and Korean MMOs with their own market, rather than trying to adapt to that market and competing with those in their home field it is important to hang on to it's own successful playerbase (both XI and XIV) and adapt by expanding it's already existing market and competing with the other MMOs in it's home field. The proof that the Final Fantasy MMO market is successful and exists is pretty much that they are still alive, that FFXI after so many years still has subscriptions and content running and that FFXIV wasn't scrapped at launch.

This is not to say that FFXIV doesn't benefit from looking into other MMOs, but at the same time I think that it's focus should be by looking back and deciding "Where do we want to go and how do we stay true?", "How can we bring something new that doesn't alienate our players?".


Lastly, my conclusion to all of this:
I am sure that some of you are waiting to throw a stab at me by now, but what I want to clear up is this question. "Do I want FFXIV to be FFXI-2?" The answer is Yes and No.

Yes and no?: By this I mean the following. I want XIV to be the next step, to be able to take that step it is important that the prior step is already there, or you will fall on your face. Pretty much like the FFXIV launch. No disrespect intended.

If this is still not clear, I mean that:
1. I don't want XIV to be the same game or a spin off of FFXI.
2. I do want FFXIV to be FFXI-2 in the sense that I want FFXIV to relate back to the previous MMO title, the same way that the next numerated Final Fantasy single player game would relate back to the history of the prior numerated Final fantasy games, but still bringing it's own world, crowd and story.

This is where I think that most FFXI players are being misunderstood when they look back at XI and see that things are missing in FFXIV that did incredibly well in XI. Some times I feel as if this is somehow neglected by the developers in the fear of potential dissatisfyied customers and themselves because maybe they feel that the result will be a lack of progress, but the truth is that this is where most of it's progress can be attained.

Just to name a few amongst many (Of course, ideas that can be built on, not just clones)
- Party system with clear job roles and abilities. (Importance of communication, and furthering development of some of the same jobs)
- Dynamis (the raid itself, the vast number of players, the AF2 gear, relic weapons, the challenges such as Shaddow Lord)
- Sky / Sea (rather than a "raid", have a whole zone dedicated to gather pop items, powerful bosses and also quests/story. Keeping these specific to dedicated linkshell rather than "dungeon finder").
- Some of the same mobs? Yagudo, Mandragoras, Demons, etc.
- End-game competition, though notorious monsters (This one might just be a personal preference, but pretty much like the kings and the wyrms, but this time it would be wise to give the linkshells/members downtime to how often they can claim or even participate)
- The many and yet unique zones (Ifrit's Cauldron, TOAU, Altepa Desert, Sky/sea, Ronfaure, Zi'tah, Xarcabard are amongst the many awesome zones in XI. Due to the huge size and copy/pasting in XIV there aren't many memorable places).
- Though missions, like COP, Genkai quests where you needed to find help. (Some of the most satisfying moments came from the challenges that required both challenge in getting group and in success, remember getting sky and cop access with rings/earrings as well?)
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[smokymcweed]

i cant argue with that love the post its got the truth of the matter in it

[Mishakai]

I will be honest here. When I first saw XIV, what I wanted to see was the artwork from XI, but with updated graphics, UI, new world etc.. etc..

So basically, I was hoping for a beefed up XI with a WoW interface and all new content. Not necessarilly an XI v2, but kinda along those paths.

It seems to me people are almost split 50/50. You have some who want to see more XI in XIV, and others who want stuff completely and totally new for XIV.

I'm kinda down the middle. There are A LOT of things I want from XI in my XIV. XI was my first MMO, and I have very fond memories of my time in there. I see no problem having elemts of XI in XIV to help evoke those emotions/memories.

At the same time, I want new monsters, new zones to explore, new classes to try (as well as some old favorites from XI making a comeback... yes, I am one of the people who wants my little blue wyvern dangit!!!)..

The other thing, gamers tend to be very passionate about their opinions, and can oft go overboard when trying to argue their point of view (I do it quite often, even though I try my best not to). It's hard not to get excited over things you are passionate about.

[Xatsh]

Do we want FFXIV to become XI-2, the answer is yes to a degree.

A XI clone is guaranteed will fail, just like a WoW clone is guaranteed to fail.

We need defining concepts from XI, the story arches, the intertwining quest and missions, and the basic elements to a final fantasy game. We need to draw on what XI did to keep 95% of its playerbase active for over 7yrs, something no other mmo has ever done. We need to draw on the long term goals which keep players playing for a very long time, we need to let people build their characters over years not update to update. We need to large scale content. We need stuff that hardcore simply cannot breeze through in a week/month/year.

We also need defining concepts from WoW(mainstream). The userfriendly interface, The auction house system which is superior to XI, Content for solo players, tiered battles so the hardcore can be challenged and the (I would say casual but even they can do hard stuff) less talented do not get pushed away from the game. PvP since it is a staple of mmos despite whether people like or hate it, and the guild management systems in place.

Outside those concepts, everything must be original or the mmo will never take off. In the end no one will pay for a mmo when they can have the same experience elsewhere except the older mmo has 20 fold the content. We need something that has never been done, A game that is fun for Casual mainstream players, and no-life hardcore players. A game where there is endless content, a game that is unlike any other mmo out there in the end.

[Shipp]

Do we want FFXIV to become XI-2, the answer is yes to a degree.

A XI clone is guaranteed will fail, just like a WoW clone is guaranteed to fail.

We need defining concepts from XI, the story arches, the intertwining quest and missions, and the basic elements to a final fantasy game. We need to draw on what XI did to keep 95% of its playerbase active for over 7yrs, something no other mmo has ever done. We need to draw on the long term goals which keep players playing for a very long time, we need to let people build their characters over years not update to update. We need to large scale content. We need stuff that hardcore simply cannot breeze through in a week/month/year.

We also need defining concepts from WoW(mainstream). The userfriendly interface, The auction house system which is superior to XI, Content for solo players, tiered battles so the hardcore can be challenged and the (I would say casual but even they can do hard stuff) less talented do not get pushed away from the game. PvP since it is a staple of mmos despite whether people like or hate it, and the guild management systems in place.

Outside those concepts, everything must be original or the mmo will never take off. In the end no one will pay for a mmo when they can have the same experience elsewhere except the older mmo has 20 fold the content. We need something that has never been done, A game that is fun for Casual mainstream players, and no-life hardcore players. A game where there is endless content, a game that is unlike any other mmo out there in the end.

I completely agree with this. We need the XI feel like the artistic direction (which XIV is sorely lacking, though 2.0 looks promising), more fantasy and less boring realism. You can have realistically visioned fantasy which is more along the lines of how XI was. Still maintaining the realistic models, yet high fantasy areas such as floating islands. We do not need the time grind of waiting to get a party for hours, waiting on 3 hour HNM windows, and time-sinky ridiculousness. UI elements from actual MMOs that know what they're doing in regards to the PC is a plus. The same type of content is also a plus from other popular MMOs, just with enough of a unique twist where it does not feel like you're doing a carbon copy of another MMO with different skins. Instances/raids would be better if they were more like how XI was in terms of actually feeling like you're part of something instead of just mindlessly AoEing crap down to get to the boss, or completely skipping everything but the boss. Hallways like WoW would be the wrong direction. Boss encounters like WoW would be the right direction, however. More bosses, less trash.

I think XIV could be awesome if it successfully mixed the popular elements of most MMOs with XI, though it could also be done horrible if it's half-assed. I enjoyed pre-ToAU XI, but ToAU largely destroyed the game for me since I played mages. Segregating the playerbase like that was not a good idea, and I hope XIV doesn't make that same mistake.

[Shikyo]

Do we want FFXIV to become XI-2, the answer is yes to a degree.

A XI clone is guaranteed will fail, just like a WoW clone is guaranteed to fail.

We need defining concepts from XI, the story arches, the intertwining quest and missions, and the basic elements to a final fantasy game. We need to draw on what XI did to keep 95% of its playerbase active for over 7yrs, something no other mmo has ever done. We need to draw on the long term goals which keep players playing for a very long time, we need to let people build their characters over years not update to update. We need to large scale content. We need stuff that hardcore simply cannot breeze through in a week/month/year.

We also need defining concepts from WoW(mainstream). The userfriendly interface, The auction house system which is superior to XI, Content for solo players, tiered battles so the hardcore can be challenged and the (I would say casual but even they can do hard stuff) less talented do not get pushed away from the game. PvP since it is a staple of mmos despite whether people like or hate it, and the guild management systems in place.

Outside those concepts, everything must be original or the mmo will never take off. In the end no one will pay for a mmo when they can have the same experience elsewhere except the older mmo has 20 fold the content. We need something that has never been done, A game that is fun for Casual mainstream players, and no-life hardcore players. A game where there is endless content, a game that is unlike any other mmo out there in the end.

I agree ..

[Teakwood]

Part of the problem here is that FFXI is at -least- two, possibly three different games. Some people on the forums seem to be sad that XIV isn't CoP-era XI, some that it's not ToAU-era XI. Oddly enough -everyone- on the forums seems to hate Abyssea-era XI, which in my opinion (between Magians, FoV/GoV, and Abyssea) is the best the game has been the whole time it's been out.

Honestly, it's apples and oranges trying to compare XIV to XI especially under Yoshida's control. Despite having the same battle director and significant dev team overlaps even still, the games feel entirely different - basically, people just love to scream and whine about "FFXI-2" (or the "FFXIV is becoming a WoW clone", which is arguably even worse given the fact that borrowing elements of a proven successful work is generally a -good- idea), either one way or the other (and sometimes both ways in the same thread) as a replacement for actually having a reasoned opinion about the game and its issues. It's easier to gnash your teeth and curse the Twelve than to actually explain what you do or don't think is a good idea and why

[Tezz_Xivectro]

What is so bad about FFXI?

Standing around or AFK in almost everything you do.

That's what's wrong with FF11. Shouldn't a game be fun. At least to the point where you're actually playing the game. Not wanting to leech & afk (not just talking about leveling either).

Back when FF11 first started the older mentality was nothing like this. We're in a day & age where we need time sinks without them seeming like time sinks.
SE has to find a way to psychologically mind-fuck people into doing long content.
It needs to be something we actually feel like doing & progression is clear/"fun". Not a dull chore.

[Scherwiz]

Standing around or AFK in almost everything you do.

That's what's wrong with FF11. Shouldn't a game be fun. At least to the point where you're actually playing the game. Not wanting to leech & afk (not just talking about leveling either).

Back when FF11 first started the older mentality was nothing like this. We're in a day & age where we need time sinks without them seeming like time sinks.
SE has to find a way to psychologically mind-fuck people into doing long content.
It needs to be something we actually feel like doing & progression is clear/"fun". Not a dull chore.

You must have been playing with the wrong kind of people, my friends on Valefor were not like that, but I understand what you are getting at.

[Preypacer]

Standing around or AFK in almost everything you do.

That's what's wrong with FF11. Shouldn't a game be fun. At least to the point where you're actually playing the game. Not wanting to leech & afk (not just talking about leveling either).

Back when FF11 first started the older mentality was nothing like this. We're in a day & age where we need time sinks without them seeming like time sinks.
SE has to find a way to psychologically mind-fuck people into doing long content.
It needs to be something we actually feel like doing & progression is clear/"fun". Not a dull chore.

When I read posts like this I can't help but think they're leaning clear into the "hyperbolic" end of things.

For one, your last paragraph sorta comes across as you saying "people have to be told what to do and tricked into having fun, 'cause they can't figure it how on their own.". It's a terribly cynical perspective... but not necessarily one without merit. However, I also don't think that entirely lays at SE's feet.

As for your description of FFXI... It certainly doesn't sound like the FFXI I played. For at least 90% of the time I played FFXI (from US PC launch up to just before Abyssea with a few breaks along the way), I had a ball. Only thing that ever got to me was some of the people I encountered.

I never stood around doing nothing unless that's exactly what I wanted to do. If I wanted to get an xp party and invites weren't coming as quickly, I'd try to assemble a party instead.

If it wasn't xp parties, I'd be doing something else.. like crafting, or putting together Assault groups, or working on lower level jobs.. or working on missions/quests I wanted to get done. There was always something to do in FFXI. You almost never had to stand around doing nothing... unless you chose to.

Notice how in the majority of complaints you hear about parties in XI, it entails the person complaining "standing around waiting for a party"? Their problem is contained right in their own complaint, and the solution was right in their own grasp.

The people I knew who tended to wait for others to invite them did tend to stand around waiting a lot. And oh how they complained, blaming SE, blaming the game, blaming their job.. blaming everyone and everything but themselves.

Meanwhile, those who chose to take the initiative and form parties were out xp'ing.

The problem largely lay in people wanting everything to come to them without effort or initiative on their part (as is the case with a lot of gamers these days, is it not?).

I had a good friend in FFXI who leveled not one, but two characters from scratch, getting all jobs - including the unpopular ones - from 1 to 75 in less time than many others would require. Why? She took initiative. She didn't stand around waiting for the invites to come to her... She sent the invites out herself. And before someone says "well she was a girl so it would be easier for her".. most people didn't know she was a female until after they were grouped with her.. if they ever found out at all. She didn't use her gender to get an easier ride.

She put as many hours into the game as many others did. The difference is, while others stood around complaining about "no invites", she was putting groups together.

I remember a discussion in LS one night where people were bitching about how long it took to get parties and were surprised at how she was always in a party, or going after a HNM, and generally always making progress. Her answer pissed half the LS off (those complaining) but it was absolutely true: "I make all this progress because I don't stand around with my thumb up my ass waiting for others to come to me so I can play the game".

Of course people in the LS argued with her left and right that she was wrong, that it had nothing to do with standing around, etc. But at the end of the day... the proof is in the pudding. She was assertive, took the initiative and didn't wait to be called on. If she wanted something, she grabbed the proverbial bull by the horns and made it happen. That was the only difference between her and the people sitting around in Jeuno "for hours" with their seek flags up.