What is so bad about FFXI?

[Physic]

When I read posts like this I can't help but think they're leaning clear into the "hyperbolic" end of things.

For one, your last paragraph sorta comes across as you saying "people have to be told what to do and tricked into having fun, 'cause they can't figure it how on their own.". It's a terribly cynical perspective... but not necessarily one without merit. However, I also don't think that entirely lays at SE's feet.

As for your description of FFXI... It certainly doesn't sound like the FFXI I played. For at least 90% of the time I played FFXI (from US PC launch up to just before Abyssea with a few breaks along the way), I had a ball. Only thing that ever got to me was some of the people I encountered.

I never stood around doing nothing unless that's exactly what I wanted to do. If I wanted to get an xp party and invites weren't coming as quickly, I'd try to assemble a party instead.

If it wasn't xp parties, I'd be doing something else.. like crafting, or putting together Assault groups, or working on lower level jobs.. or working on missions/quests I wanted to get done. There was always something to do in FFXI. You almost never had to stand around doing nothing... unless you chose to.

Notice how in the majority of complaints you hear about parties in XI, it entails the person complaining "standing around waiting for a party"? Their problem is contained right in their own complaint, and the solution was right in their own grasp.

The people I knew who tended to wait for others to invite them did tend to stand around waiting a lot. And oh how they complained, blaming SE, blaming the game, blaming their job.. blaming everyone and everything but themselves.

Meanwhile, those who chose to take the initiative and form parties were out xp'ing.

The problem largely lay in people wanting everything to come to them without effort or initiative on their part (as is the case with a lot of gamers these days, is it not?).

I had a good friend in FFXI who leveled not one, but two characters from scratch, getting all jobs - including the unpopular ones - from 1 to 75 in less time than many others would require. Why? She took initiative. She didn't stand around waiting for the invites to come to her... She sent the invites out herself. And before someone says "well she was a girl so it would be easier for her".. most people didn't know she was a female until after they were grouped with her.. if they ever found out at all. She didn't use her gender to get an easier ride.

She put as many hours into the game as many others did. The difference is, while others stood around complaining about "no invites", she was putting groups together.

I remember a discussion in LS one night where people were bitching about how long it took to get parties and were surprised at how she was always in a party, or going after a HNM, and generally always making progress. Her answer pissed half the LS off (those complaining) but it was absolutely true: "I make all this progress because I don't stand around with my thumb up my ass waiting for others to come to me so I can play the game".

Of course people in the LS argued with her left and right that she was wrong, that it had nothing to do with standing around, etc. But at the end of the day... the proof is in the pudding. She was assertive, took the initiative and didn't wait to be called on. If she wanted something, she grabbed the proverbial bull by the horns and made it happen. That was the only difference between her and the people sitting around in Jeuno "for hours" with their seek flags up.

putting things together in ffxi was a tremendous hassle, full of ignorance arrogance elitism etc. It wasnt easy, unless you had a core group. The fact is it always took way longer to prepare to do something in ffxi, than it did to do it. Some things just made no sense, like the beastmen seal fight with gods, required 12-18 people, and yet, it would be almost impossible to do them 12 to 18 times in one sitting, so then you have to spend time trying to figure out how to distribute the rewards on what would be a substantial investment of time.

FFXI had it strengths, but it definitely had its weaknesses, and i would let this game have its own strengths and weaknesses, without trying to recreate FFXI, like many people have probably said, the FF idealogy is not one of sequels, just because YOU like i specific final fantasy doesnt mean every final fantasy should follow the same format. Take it or leave it, it is not XI, and it should never become XI, going by their previous design philosophy, and what makes sense while the XI product is still in circulation and viable.

There is no reason to make an XI-2 when XI is still around.

[Jennestia]

There is no reason to make an XI-2 when XI is still around.

Which again, not one person has truly ever said -- Unless of course one is willing to admit that every MMORPG that has a similar interface is indeed a direct sequel of another MMO. For example Rappelz is clearly a Lineage II-2, it's undeniable.

Honestly, most people have specifically said take what worked in FFXI, i.e PARTY SEARCH and made it better, as well as taking content concepts, i.e Assault/Nyzul/Einherjar systems, as in point based raid systems, how is that making it FFXI-2?

Then again, Imperial Assaults are very reminiscent of the campaign system, so in a roundabout way, it's already FFXI-2 in that logic.

[Quanta]

The problem largely lay in people wanting everything to come to them without effort or initiative on their part (as is the case with a lot of gamers these days, is it not?).

Bullshit. For me, a lot of it had to do with the fact that, after a time, nobody was using the seeking system anymore to express their intent to actually, you know, want to party and gain exp. It rendered the system useless for the purposes of recruitment, leaving the only recourse to bother as many people as possible until you managed to form a group. I got plenty of requests to group from random strangers while I played, and I turned many of them down. The problem? I wasn't flagged, so why the fuck were you asking me to group with you when there were usually a half-dozen other folks with their flags up looking to gain exp that day?

Things ultimately fell apart for me because the system as designed didn't work as it was supposed to, and I didn't want to bother the people who didn't have their flag up as I had no way to gauge their intent or desires beforehand; I could either get lucky and they actually did want to group, or I could get a "No thanks" and resume the search, or I could get a "Fuck off" and feel bad 'cuz I obviously bothered someone.

In short, the system that told people "Yeah, sure, I'd like to group" was at odds with the social dynamics of the game's players, putting people who didn't understand those dynamics at a disadvantage when forming groups for pretty much everything in the game. If people had actually used the tool instead of going "Well, I'm sure some random stranger will ask me to do stuff at some point, or maybe I'll ask random strangers myself regardless of interest," people might have enjoyed FFXI better than they did. Fuck your initiative, you insensitive prick.

[Jinko]

I don't want FFXIV anything at all like FFXI, I'm glad Yoshi doesn't either.

As he said in an interview many people were expecting the battle system to be like 11's when they remade it and it turned out quite a bit different, thankfully with 2.0 animation locks will be gone it will somewhere between FF11 and WoW I guess.

As for the other stuff It's unlikely to be anything like 11, apart from zoned areas maybe.

I would rather the Devs look at other Final Fantasy games like 4 and 6 than 11.

[Quesse]

I don't want to keep playing the same game over and over.

[Scherwiz]

I don't want to keep playing the same game over and over.

And you shouldn't have to, but I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for some things that are like XI too.

[AdvancedWind]

And you shouldn't have to, but I don't think it is unfair to ask for some things that are like XI too.

Well, I do agree that some features present in XI that work well should be implemented on XIV too. The whole "XI-2" issue comes when people just want to go the XI way for "fixing" every thing, instead of improving on XIV's unique systems.

[Jennestia]

Well, I do agree that some features present in XI that work well should be implemented on XIV too. The whole "XI-2" issue comes when people just want to go the XI way for "fixing" every thing, instead of improving on XIV's unique systems.

Nah, the "XI-2" issue generally comes from people who are against that game (for whatever reason) and assume anyone who even mentions it (btw, Yoshida mentions FFXI a lot lately when referring to foundation systems) wants a direct copy. I mean, naturally when you hear Final Fantasy XIV as well as It's an MMORPG which is being developed by Square Enix you naturally assume they would have built off of what FFXI laid over the past 10ish years.

Not a clone, but building off of it -- XIV could have launch with damn well an offline RPG worth of storyline content if they built off of the same flow as XI, same with content systems, i.e Besieged/Campaign (guess what Imperial raids are reminiscent of?) Assault type systems where you do x type of raids and gather points to purchase gear and items and so on. Basically, things like that, which obviously is present in other RPGs, but the way XI did it had a twist to it, usually incorporating it into the storyline, most MMOs don't really add raids and the like to storyline, just a small backstory blurb as to why the instance even exists.

So there's nothing wrong with FFXI really and XIV wouldn't even exist as an MMO if they didn't succeed with XI because if it failed like some people in the XIV community like to say, they wouldn't have attempted FMO (didn't fail either, but wasn't as popular) nor would they do it a 3rd time (FFXIV).

As said there's really 3 eras of FFXI, which linked with how the MMO community changed:

CoP - Era, also known as the challenge era and golden age of FFXI, because not only did it offer a lot of base content expansion, it also offered twice as much end-game content than vanilla and zilart.

ToAU/WoTG - Era, also known as the beginning of the casual era. It fixed all of the problems people complained about, i.e having to actually do work for the storyline and made the storyline doable in a very quick pace ignoring Japanese midnight waits. It also added in a bunch of point based systems as well as one system we all love or hate (Salvage.) Later, it added poppable NMs (ZNM) and Einherjar (tier based dungeons.) Not to mention WoTG's epic storyline, but it also was the start of XIV's physical production...so the storyline spanned over 3 years....

Then comes Abyssea, which is the ultimate requiem to how MMOs are these days - Do a little work, gain massive rewards to the point you're almost overflowing with handouts. That's not to say it's a bad thing, but it does show just how MMOs have changed and what people come to expect. Whether you love it or hate it, Abyssea was well received because people who just join the game can get well geared in very short time compared to how long it used to take back in 2004-2006.

[Tanoshii]

Nah, the "XI-2" issue generally comes from people who are against that game (for whatever reason) and assume anyone who even mentions it (btw, Yoshida mentions FFXI a lot lately when referring to foundation systems) wants a direct copy. I mean, naturally when you hear Final Fantasy XIV as well as It's an MMORPG which is being developed by Square Enix you naturally assume they would have built off of what FFXI laid over the past 10ish years.

Not a clone, but building off of it -- XIV could have launch with damn well an offline RPG worth of storyline content if they built off of the same flow as XI, same with content systems, i.e Besieged/Campaign (guess what Imperial raids are reminiscent of?) Assault type systems where you do x type of raids and gather points to purchase gear and items and so on. Basically, things like that, which obviously is present in other RPGs, but the way XI did it had a twist to it, usually incorporating it into the storyline, most MMOs don't really add raids and the like to storyline, just a small backstory blurb as to why the instance even exists.

So there's nothing wrong with FFXI really and XIV wouldn't even exist as an MMO if they didn't succeed with XI because if it failed like some people in the XIV community like to say, they wouldn't have attempted FMO (didn't fail either, but wasn't as popular) nor would they do it a 3rd time (FFXIV).

As said there's really 3 eras of FFXI, which linked with how the MMO community changed:

CoP - Era, also known as the challenge era and golden age of FFXI, because not only did it offer a lot of base content expansion, it also offered twice as much end-game content than vanilla and zilart.

ToAU/WoTG - Era, also known as the beginning of the casual era. It fixed all of the problems people complained about, i.e having to actually do work for the storyline and made the storyline doable in a very quick pace ignoring Japanese midnight waits. It also added in a bunch of point based systems as well as one system we all love or hate (Salvage.) Later, it added poppable NMs (ZNM) and Einherjar (tier based dungeons.) Not to mention WoTG's epic storyline, but it also was the start of XIV's physical production...so the storyline spanned over 3 years....

Then comes Abyssea, which is the ultimate requiem to how MMOs are these days - Do a little work, gain massive rewards to the point you're almost overflowing with handouts. That's not to say it's a bad thing, but it does show just how MMOs have changed and what people come to expect. Whether you love it or hate it, Abyssea was well received because people who just join the game can get well geared in very short time compared to how long it used to take back in 2004-2006.

Even if FFXI would have failed completely, they probably still would have came out with another MMO (DQX).

FFXI is so slow the player skill ceiling is extremely low. I'm glad they're moving away from those types of systems.

[EmeraldHill]

A lot of things are bad about FFXI.