Thread: 3.2 PLD: Clemency and Divine Veil

Originally Posted by Nyalia

Just keep in mind that DV doesn't affect the user. It shields the rest of the party for 10% of the user's max HP.

I completely agree with you it doesn't overshadow the healer role it has its own entity on the type of save that it is

I get the sense you're one of those people who hated Tricks of the Trade pulling and Misdirect pulling in WoW.

Really, there will always be some overlap between the jobs, because all of them need to be able to function independent of one another with various degrees of ability. We play in an open world for most of the game, where we don't rely on others to heal us or to deal damage. This has always been a huge difficulty with the trinity system, and why class/job design can be so difficult--put these self-sufficient jobs into a group, and you need to figure out how to enforce roles without gimping the jobs. One of the biggest ways they do this is by making it so that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts; a party operating together and playing on one another's strengths will be more capable than if they just all did their own thing. And this is why we see this overlap.

Divine Veil doesn't give healers less to do, it makes it so a healer can go a good bit farther than they might have otherwise.

Clemency doesn't take work away from healers; if anything, it frees up the need for them to drop Cleric Stance to save that one idiot who didn't notice the AoE in time, or allows them to cast Medica after an AoE without first needing to heal the person who got hit to 5% HP because they were the unlucky one to get crit by it.

It's like how a healer DPSing in Cleric Stance doesn't take damage away from the DPS despite there only being a fixed amount of damage possible to deal in a given fight. They do damage because it contributes to group success, and because stance-dancing as a healer is actually a hell of a lot of fun.

We call the overlap between roles and the enhancements that jobs bring their utility. It's also why pseudo-support classes like MCH, BRD, and AST exist.

I will readily agree that Divine Veil and Clemency look better on paper than they feel in practice. But taking healing and group mitigation away from Paladins in favor of some contrived perception of role lines is not the way to make them feel as good as they sound.

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

The net effect if to halve the current aggro on the healer, which, if the tank is doing anything but browing your posts here, will result in aggro being shed in favor of the tank. You are once again ignoring actual reality of play in favor of your pet theory.

Only if the emnity board is:
Healer
Tank
Everyone else

And the tank has generated or genrates a significant amount of emnity

If you truly do not see a difference here can i ask why you'd have a problem with DV improving heals/shields, rather than making shields?

The main difference is that just like SoS, DV wouldn't be very effective without basic actions from another class

Originally Posted by winsock

If you truly do not see a difference here can i ask why you'd have a problem with DV improving heals/shields, rather than making shields?

The main difference is that just like SoS, DV wouldn't be very effective without basic actions from another class

The change in DV isn't really a big deal in itself that you suggested. More so, it simply isn't necessary. You WANT more work as a healer. Ok, that's fine. Some prefer less work so they can DPS more. DV's current situation is more geared for that type of mindset. Kind of like galvanize allows for SCH to DPS more because it's dmg mitigation rather than healing (well... and Eos).

So if you ask why we have a problem with it improving heals rather than providing a shield, it's the exact same that we ask, why not a shield as is instead of your idea? It's simply a preference. MOST would rather have the shield. It prevents dmg if it comes. Usually, party wide dmg is sustainable for a healer to take care of WITHOUT everyone having a heal boost on. You talk about wasting resources, but if DV provided a heal boost, it'd be best used for party wide damage, and that would mean party wide healing from the healers and most likely, a lot of OVER HEALING. Especially if a monk was there and proc'd mantra on top of this. It's kind of like saying, why doesn't a SCH's galvanize give everyone a regen instead of a shield? Because it doesn't. I personally LOVE DV as is. I love mitigation rather than having to be healed. I always put stoneskin on myself before pulls. Sure, it's not a LOT of mitigation, but it's mitigation. I've survived a mob with 500 hp before. Guess what? No stoneskin may have meant me dead right there otherwise.

We got a tad off topic about the brez when your initial intent was for a change to Clemency and Divine Veil.
DV - your idea is simply a preference because you want to heal more. That's fine, but many also like it as a shield. And DV is nice for tank busters when assisting another tank deal with it. Being able to be healed more won't save you if you can't survive the hit in the first place.

Clemency - You want to take away a PLD's only viable way to self heal themselves. Bloodbath is more like mitigation. PLD's only AoE is CoS, which doesn't even hit that hard. So unlike a WAR, we can't really sustain ourselves with it. Cures do 250 base healing for a PLD. Most trash enemies can dish out more damage to us than we could heal with that. So unless you're going to give us some sort of regen hp shield, there is really no way for us to solo things without Clemency. It giving us the ability to boost a healer's effect on us would provide zero utility, just like DV already provides us for solo content. It would likely cripple the PLD to be WORSE than it was before the latest update.

Originally Posted by winsock

Only if the emnity board is:
If you truly do not see a difference here can i ask why you'd have a problem with DV improving heals/shields, rather than making shields?

The main difference is that just like SoS, DV wouldn't be very effective without basic actions from another class

You don't get it at all. Probably because you don't play the game at any level high enough to comment on design or balance.

You compare PLD to the other tanks. Storm's Path and Reprisal / Delirium are all up-front damage mitigation. They lower the amount of damage you take and do not rely on healing. It is all independent proactive damage mitigation, not reactive healing. You are fixated on the term shielding and are failing to acknowledge what the point is. The point is raid mitigation.

So, if you fundamentally changed DV, PLD would be the only tank without any independent raid mitigation aside from RoH which doesn't really count because of how few physical damage type RWD mechanics there are.

Also, the change is even dumber when you think about how it will actually play out in reality. SCHs don't succor a party before major raid damage. They adlo a WAR who is sitting in defiance with conva up and deploy it. So, the only purpose DV would serve would be to further increase the size of the shield the WAR is getting and has nothing to do with the party. Does that not seem stupid to you? Does that not seem like taking three giant steps backwards in terms of design?