Healer Enmity increase?

[Hellboy-sa]

Eh... what? Who lost 15% of their damage now? Overall, my damage has substantially increased as a paladin on account of higher damage ratings on skills, a 5% damage gain in tank stance (previously reduced outgoing damage by 20%, and is now 15%) and vitality now plays a substantial role in damage so anyone who geared for VIT (like, actual tank gear) would have seen vast improvements.

Couple this with the enmity boost gain, and there's no reason tanks should be losing aggro. This goes double for paladins who rely more on Flash than they do on raw DPS to maintain aggro, since it was fixed aggro to start with, and now awards more enmity.

Where is this misinformation about tanks losing damage coming from?

guess u didnt know about STR tanking and how most tanks lost somewhere around 20% DPS because not just STR isnt main stat

but also 1 STR + 1 VIT = 0.90 of attack power

[Ghishlain]

Eh... what? Who lost 15% of their damage now? Overall, my damage has substantially increased as a paladin on account of higher damage ratings on skills, a 5% damage gain in tank stance (previously reduced outgoing damage by 20%, and is now 15%) and vitality now plays a substantial role in damage so anyone who geared for VIT (like, actual tank gear) would have seen vast improvements.

Couple this with the enmity boost gain, and there's no reason tanks should be losing aggro. This goes double for paladins who rely more on Flash than they do on raw DPS to maintain aggro, since it was fixed aggro to start with, and now awards more enmity.

Where is this misinformation about tanks losing damage coming from?

It's actually not misinformation, though to be fair my statement was also only speaking to one branch of the tanking dynamic so I shall rephrase and clarify:

Full VIT turtle tanks gained approximately 10% additional damage due to the tank changes. PLDs gained more due to the class buffs received at the same time.
FUll STR optimized DPS tanks lost approximately 15% damage due to the tank changes.

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Though adding to the discussion further - I also agree that healers should be cautious of healing after the robots merge and become Brute Justice because it's considered a new mob and tanks will need to establish hate on said target. I had an amusing sight as a WHM I was partnered up with in A8N decided to pop both Medica II and Assize immediately after the damage went out. I guess they Tetra'd too after my PLD tank Provoke'd Brute Justice because it wouldn't leave the WHM alone, eventually popping "DOUBLUUUUUU ROCKETUUUU PUNCHUUUUUUU" on the WHM and absolutely crushing her >>;

I know I shouldn't be laughing but I was laughing exceptionally hard after I saw it happen as I popped my Swiftcast + Ascend.

[Lemuria]

FUll STR optimized DPS tanks lost approximately 15% damage due to the tank changes.

If you're fully strength geared, you're far from 'optimized'. That goes for pre and post-patch. Furthermore, the calculations are still wrong. My guess is they calculated it based on tanks using the same gear that they used to - meaning full strength gear. So it's only natural they would see a significant decrease due to the new vitality requirement.

Now, if you compare the old full strength tanks with today's vitality tanks you will find they're very much on par in terms of damage when using equivalent gear. Of course, no one does this because everyone's still lamenting the fact they only saved up tomes for strength accessories.

[Ghishlain]

If you're fully strength geared, you're far from 'optimized'. That goes for pre and post-patch. Furthermore, the calculations are still wrong. My guess is they calculated it based on tanks using the same gear that they used to - meaning full strength gear. So it's only natural they would see a significant decrease due to the new vitality requirement.

Now, if you compare the old full strength tanks with today's vitality tanks you will find they're very much on par in terms of damage when using equivalent gear. Of course, no one does this because everyone's still lamenting the fact they only saved up tomes for strength accessories.

I hate to turn this into the now very dead VIT tank versus STR tank discussion but I want to respond to this.

I think it's pretty clear I was address how the 3.2 STR/VIT changes affected the two different gearing paradigms but I will clarify my comment even further:

Full VIT turtle tanks gained approximately 10% additional damage from the STR/VIT changes introduced in 3.2 compared to the exact same gear in 3.1. PLDs gained more due to the class buffs received at the same time.
FUll STR optimized DPS tanks lost approximately 15% damage from the STR/VIT changes introduced in 3.2 compared to the exact same gear in 3.1.

Here is a Reddit post comparing pre-3.2 and post-3.2 Tank DPS numbers.

The relevant numbers from that thread:

Sword Oath PLD
STR @ 3.1 - DPS = 955.47
VIT @ 3.1 - DPS = 693.27

STR @ 3.2 - DPS = 803.12 (~15.9% DPS loss compared to 3.1 STR)
VIT @ 3.2 - DPS = 804.75 (~16.1% DPS increased compared to 3.1 VIT [OR] ~15.8% DPS loss compared to 3.1 STR)

Shield Oath PLD
STR @ 3.1 - DPS = 671.54
VIT @ 3.1 - DPS = 493.80

STR @ 3.2 - DPS = 566.95 (~15.6% DPS loss compared to 3.1 STR)
VIT @ 3.2 - DPS = 599.62 (~21.4% DPS increased compared to 3.1 VIT [OR] ~10.3% DPS loss compared to 3.1 STR)

Darkside ONLY DRK
STR @ 3.1 - DPS = 1,034.95
VIT @ 3.1 - DPS = 765.26

STR @ 3.2 - DPS = 835.06 (~19.3% DPS loss compared to 3.1 STR)
VIT @ 3.2 - DPS = 843.29 (~10.2% DPS increased compared to 3.1 VIT [OR] ~18.5% DPS loss compared to 3.1 STR)

So, yes my math is approximately right. Also Pre-3.2 STR tanks were optimized for DPS. These were the tanks willing to forgo some HP to dramatically increase both their DPS output and their threat generation (by a rather impressive 35% with the above listed numbers) compared to their VIT geared brethren.

And no, your statement about how current i210 VIT tanks have comparable damage to i210 STR tanks in 3.1 is incorrect. Based on the math above, i210 VIT tanks in 3.2 are still weaker than i210 STR tanks in 3.1 even with the VIT change. And also shows that my statements are true.

Tanks using STR accessories pre-3.2 witnessed a damage drop post-3.2.
Tanks using VIT accessories pre-3.2 witnessed a damage increase post-3.2.

So, now I have to ask:

Where is this misinformation that VIT tanks in 3.2 are doing comparable damage to STR tanks in 3.1 when using equivalent gear coming from?

[Synestra]

Couple this with the enmity boost gain, and there's no reason tanks should be losing aggro.

Most have not yet accepted new tanking meta, holding hate in DPS stance became harder than it was before. Instead sitting in dps stance 24/7 you now actually need to build some lead in tank stance and then you can go dps stance, but just for a while as healers/dd's are slowly creeping up in enmity list. So now we actually need to stance dance in and out depending on enmity lead/boss rotation, i kinda like it as now enmity actually matters again.

[AlphaFox]

No issues here tanking on Midas or Seph EX, granted I have ran as pure VIT the entire time so the change didn't bother me.

[kingatlas]

Well saying it's not the healers fault at all, without any info is kind of Misleading.

Was the healer overhealing excessively? we don't know
Was the healer way over geared compered to their tanks? we don't know
Did the healer start the fight with a HOT before pull? We don't know

There are also other reasons, but yes some tanks are having trouble adjusting, because they still want to push dps, even in content where it isn't needed.

[Ranulf]

Also remember, Brute Justice is technically a new encounter, so enmity has been wiped completely clean. Blasting the party with an Assize/Medica II/Cure III, Indom/Succor, (Aspec.)Helios right at the start is a sure fire way to glue him onto you until he wastes you or the tanks scramble to take him back.

I know it's tempting to heal everyone up to full after Transformation, but let them get a combo and some OGCDs off first before you heal up. The first brutal attack is Double Rocket Punch which does minimal damage with Virus, cooldowns, and a soak.

[Aldora]

Also remember, Brute Justice is technically a new encounter, so enmity has been wiped completely clean. Blasting the party with an Assize/Medica II/Cure III, Indom/Succor, (Aspec.)Helios right at the start is a sure fire way to glue him onto you until he wastes you or the tanks scramble to take him back.

I know it's tempting to heal everyone up to full after Transformation, but let them get a combo and some OGCDs off first before you heal up. The first brutal attack is Double Rocket Punch which does minimal damage with Virus, cooldowns, and a soak.

What Ranulf said here is basically the problem i’m facing as a tank.

It’s not that the enmity of a healer has been increased or the enmity generation of the tank has been decreased, but that the hate has been wiped clean when Brute Justice appears. So, it’s more a matter of the timing of the heals and the strength of the heals the moment Brute Justice becomes targetable.

But, that doesn’t mean i would blame a healer or a DPS for generating hate “too fast”, or say that the tank (in this case me) sucks. It’s a relatively new fight, so we’re all still figuring out what works best.

[dekal]

Yeah it can be either the tank(s) or heale's fault. If the healer got better gears and is doing df, try to gear up lower ilvl? If the tank has same gear ilvl he was not in shield oath and that will make it hard to regain the aggro or the other tank was voking the boss. The other tank may be got difficulty on keeping aggro.