Players need more power

[gifthorse]

What is the purpose of an MMO?

Sometimes I have to ask myself: is a Massively Multiplayer Online game any different from a Single Player game? With the way the games are designed at the moment, I would wager that the developers of said games don't think so. The end products we receive seem to suggest that developers of MMOs approach them in almost a similar way to how they approach single player games.

Just look at what FFXIV set out to accomplish. Tanaka stated that FFXIV was supposed to bring single player FF players to the world of MMOs. They created a world, lore, and some things to do in this world. And then they opened that world up to us players as a mere afterthought.

The same is true of WoW, FFXI, everquest. Most MMOs are made with the philosophy of "give players something to do." Generally this is in the form of quests, i suppose.

But you have to ask yourself if this mentality is really making the most of the MMO genre. With so many players playing together, you would think they would have the potential and capacity to do more than simply digest the quests and bosses/ NMs/ Raids/ Dungeons/ Instances which the developers give them.

Which brings me to the point of the thread. Players need more power, and developers should change their design philosophy from that of "give players something to do" to instead "give players the tools to make something to do."

In WoW, FFXI, Everquest, FFXIV even as a next gen MMO, we can't shape the world around us. We are merely passers by, along for the ride. And I think that falls short of the ideal for what an MMO should be.

So do you think players need more power to change and effect the world? Is there a chance of abuse? Or would you prefer to just do quests and instanced content which the developers give you? Or both?

[JasonMarkle]

You make a strong and good case with what you're suggesting. The problem is the amount of time and money it would take to turn a game already released into what you're saying. Though I love the idea of the "give players the tools to make something to do" philosophy that you brought up, it's so broad people could turn it into many opinions as to what you mean. So can you please elaborate on what you see that philosophy as? Such as - "what tool?", "what can you make?". "I have the sword, I can slay the monsters. In essence that is what your saying." (this is an example of what people will do to this kind of a good post here).

[gifthorse]

You make a strong and good case with what you're suggesting. The problem is the amount of time and money it would take to turn a game already released into what you're saying. Though I love the idea of the "give players the tools to make something to do" philosophy that you brought up, it's so broad people could turn it into many opinions as to what you mean. So can you please elaborate on what you see that philosophy as? Such as - "what tool?", "what can you make?". "I have the sword, I can slay the monsters. In essence that is what your saying." (this is an example of what people will do to this kind of a good post here).

Of course what I am suggesting is nigh on infeasible in a game already released because this is the kind of philsophy that should be the foundation of a game, not a simple appendage. But there is still room for improvement to FFXIV with the addition of player-driven features.

Allow me to elaborate. I will just explain an example of what I mean.

Territory

By this I mean the ability to own land and build things on said land in the persistent game world. (There's enough copy-pasta terrain to go around so I am sure nobody will call foul on urbanisation of their precious game world).

This may sound like a petty addition, but it can lead to some interesting game features when you consider such things as turf warfare, either with other players or with aggressive NPC factions (beastmen tribes and so on).

The protection and welfare of your communities would become a priority, and your own player-community would be compelled to create your own quests as a demand rose for certain things: "create a wall here or defenses there", "dispatch the encroaching beastmen tribes so that we might remain safe".

Being able to move beyond that into small villages and even cities could lead to a political atmosphere which the players were in control of. Such player-driven content would provide countless sources for drama, mutinies, etc., with more meaningful rewards or consequences than anything the developers could write.

[AmyRae]

What is the purpose of an MMO?

It's a source of ongoing procrastination that lasts for years. Subscribe now, and it can be yours for the very low price of $13/month. You'll never have more fun avoiding everything else you should be doing in life.

[Jedgar]

SWG allowed for player built housing and was pretty much a necessity in the game if you wanted to do any sort of crafting, vendoring of goods, and/or storage of your stuff. Everything you built from you house, shop, and even the little processors for gathering mats for crafting required daily maintenance fees otherwise they quit working. Which if you weren't making a whole lot of credits to begin with it became more of a hassle than it was worth. (Side note people complain about the repair bill in FFXIV the one in SWG worse as you couldn't repair your gear when you died but you could insure it for a very hefty price. The better the gear the bigger the price.)

It was nice though that you would run across player run cities and towns outside of the main cities and towns but there was little to no functionality to these unless you were part of the guild. After all since these are going to be different from server to server theres no real feasible way to throw in a bunch of NPC's to hand out quests for the area.

Then there was the highly populated areas that urban sprawl just grew too large and started to influence questing. Many a times you would have to go to X location and kill Y Mobs only to find out that X location was in the middle of a player built city and it made no sense for Y Mobs to be in the city in the first place as well as making it that much more difficult to kill Y Mobs as they roamed in and out of buildings while you were locked out and always out of line of sight while trying to target them.

[JasonMarkle]

Of course what I am suggesting is nigh on infeasible in a game already released because this is the kind of philsophy that should be the foundation of a game, not a simple appendage. But there is still room for improvement to FFXIV with the addition of player-driven features.

Allow me to elaborate. I will just explain an example of what I mean.

Territory

By this I mean the ability to own land and build things on said land in the persistent game world. (There's enough copy-pasta terrain to go around so I am sure nobody will call foul on urbanisation of their precious game world).

This may sound like a petty addition, but it can lead to some interesting game features when you consider such things as turf warfare, either with other players or with aggressive NPC factions (beastmen tribes and so on).

The protection and welfare of your communities would become a priority, and your own player-community would be compelled to create your own quests as a demand rose for certain things: "create a wall here or defenses there", "dispatch the encroaching beastmen tribes so that we might remain safe".

Being able to move beyond that into small villages and even cities could lead to a political atmosphere which the players were in control of. Such player-driven content would provide countless sources for drama, mutinies, etc., with more meaningful rewards or consequences than anything the developers could write.

Thank you for the example. Now that I understand what you're saying, I believe I can now more adequately reply.

We are getting housing and the ability build ships as well. This was stated in the previous months, but has been put on hold do to the need of development for the games already lacking mechanics. However, I think these suggestions would suffice to help the development team in what they do decide on for how they structure that kind of content. For instance if you've noticed, each town has another area other than the market wards, each currently un-accessible. During the alpha and beta tests it was suggested that one would be the market wards, and the other would be the area for player housing - once we found out about the idea that is.

Another possible idea is that this could be a spot used for both building houses and the ships. Being that there's really no need for ships in terms of water transportation, the development team has stated they want to find new ways of using airships and chocobos. One of those possibilities could be the development of company airships that you would not only build the ship but also the dock, hence the random airship docks you see all over the continent of Eorzea currently; of course this is speculation, but I feel that it's also somewhat valid in its conceptualization.

If any of this would be the case, it would give you most of what you want.

[fallacies]

In an old MUD that I once played, region content was locked with passwords. It was an extremely primitive, shitty security system where anyone who had the password could enter a maintenance module that allowed room editing. As a result, some idiot renamed the starting city Castlevania and populated it with mobs that aggro.

I'm not really sure I want to see an MMO with that much player power. I mean, I really don't wanna walk out of Ul'dah and see a village called Wepwnzu. That sort of thing would totally kill this game for me.

[gifthorse]

Thank you for the example. Now that I understand what you're saying, I believe I can now more adequately reply.

We are getting housing and the ability build ships as well. This was stated in the previous months, but has been put on hold do to the need of development for the games already lacking mechanics. However, I think these suggestions would suffice to help the development team in what they do decide on for how they structure that kind of content. For instance if you've noticed, each town has another area other than the market wards, each currently un-accessible. During the alpha and beta tests it was suggested that one would be the market wards, and the other would be the area for player housing - once we found out about the idea that is.

The trouble with instanced housing is that it only exists for you and you alone. Obviously it depends on the size of the instance, but I don't believe an MMO should be a game lobby for instanced content such as housing which no one other than yourself will ever bother to visit.

Another possible idea is that this could be a spot used for both building houses and the ships. Being that there's really no need for ships in terms of water transportation, the development team has stated they want to find new ways of using airships and chocobos. One of those possibilities could be the development of company airships that you would not only build the ship but also the dock, hence the random airship docks you see all over the continent of Eorzea currently; of course this is speculation, but I feel that it's also somewhat valid in its conceptualization.

Yes, first you need a system which allows for exploration (island zones etc) before you design the means of exploration (player made boats). I think the trouble with seafaring is that we have nowhere to take ships at the moment, and also the Crystal Tools engine cannot render water to save its life.

A funny example: In the original Version Update notes which they released a long time ago, they said that Company Owned ships would lead to new multiplayer content. Obviously that was deliberately kept vague because they have no idea what kind of multiplayer content they are going to add. So being able to make your own boat is kind of a step in the direction to empowering players, but it's futile at the moment.

Chocobo raising was a good feature in FFXI which gave players some freedom. Since day one, all you could do was buy a yellow chocobo from an NPC, but with the introduction of chocobo raising, that changed. It would be nice to see this expanded to being able to tame wild chocobos like how you could tame wild horses in Ultima Online.

Anyways, I'm not sure this idea of player made ships complies with the idea of giving players power. Just building a boat which takes you from A to B, while being a novel addition, doesn't allow you to change anything.

I think it's a move in the right direction though. Similarly, having a Company owned airship is a good idea too. I'm so sick of being a passenger in MMOs and never an actor in them. Being able to guide your own life, or letting other players in your Company guide your life, is something they should strive toward.

However, it should probably be noted that under Tanaka's regime, in an interview, he shot down the idea of player-run airships. He said they would not be implementing that. So im not sure if they will ever implement this.

If any of this would be the case, it would give you most of what you want.

I definitely think it's a step in the right direction, and definitely an improvement upon MMO predecessors.

[gifthorse]

In an old MUD that I once played, region content was locked with passwords. It was an extremely primitive, shitty security system where anyone who had the password could enter a maintenance module that allowed room editing. As a result, some idiot renamed the starting city Castlevania and populated it with mobs that aggro.

I'm not really sure I want to see an MMO with that much player power. I mean, I really don't wanna walk out of Ul'dah and see a village called Wepwnzu. That sort of thing would totally kill this game for me.

Well I'm in two minds about that. It does sound quite interesting! There are always villains doing crazy things in Final Fantasy games. Cities are always being overrun by invading mobs or enemies. Also, you even remembered that event from a MUD you probably played years and years and years ago. I can't think of one thing as interesting in FFXI, except maybe that belt that turned you into a worm for an hour Lol. And so there were worms popping up all over the cities.

My point is, MMOs these days are kind of forgetable.

I think a system like the one i proposed isn't very compatible in an MMO where you don't have PvP though for the exact reason you suggested. What's to stop people from being very annoying to each other and abusing their powers if players cannot rise up against them and destroy their villages etc?

So I don't know. Giving players the ability to change the world is a pursuit i think any self-respecting MMO should try to accomplish, but in an MMO with no PvP like FFXIV, there is no way for players themselves to restore balance. They wouldn't be able to quell issues themselves and abusers wouldn't have to answer to the law of PvP.

There would need to be mediation by some other method.

[Neptune]

What is the purpose of an MMO?

Sometimes I have to ask myself: is a Massively Multiplayer Online game any different from a Single Player game? With the way the games are designed at the moment, I would wager that the developers of said games don't think so. The end products we receive seem to suggest that developers of MMOs approach them in almost a similar way to how they approach single player games.

Just look at what FFXIV set out to accomplish. Tanaka stated that FFXIV was supposed to bring single player FF players to the world of MMOs. They created a world, lore, and some things to do in said world. And then they opened that world up to us players as a mere afterthought.

The same is true of WoW, FFXI, everquest. Most MMOs are made with the philosophy of "give players something to do." Generally this is in the form of quests, i suppose.

But you have to ask yourself if this mentality is really making the most of the MMO genre. With so many players playing together, you would think they would have the potential and capacity to do more than simply digest the quests and bosses/ NMs/ Raids/ Dungeons/ Instances which the developers give them.

Which brings me to the point of the thread. Players need more power, and developers should change their design philosophy from that of "give players something to do" to instead "give players the tools to make something to do."

In WoW, FFXI, Everquest, FFXIV even as a next gen MMO, we can't shape the world around us. We are merely passers by, along for the ride. And I think that falls short of the ideal for what an MMO should be.

So do you think players need more power to change and effect the world? Is there a chance of abuse? Or would you prefer to just do quests and instanced content which the developers give you? Or both?

Yeah man I COMPLETELY agree with you. Whether or not FFXIV has the balls to take us there, future MMOs will head in this direction. Two promising things come to mind. One, if stats were more potent and we could reallocate them to a point of throwing ourselves off balance, that would be great. Imagine doing 5x damage but having 5x less hp. Playing with others would definitely come into use there. Two, player housing. If they let us craft our own houses, perhaps a bit like Minecraft, and put them wherever we want in the world, that would be grand.