id like to see cross class skills removed/changed for next expansion

[Nalien]

I'm sorry, but I really do not see how you're throwing a "That's just simplifying things" spin on this...

Every DPS sharing Blood for Blood, Invigorate and Second Wind is simplifying things. Every DPS sharing Blood for Blood, Invigorate and Second Wind is taking away class-identity... Any class-identity you may want to pretend this is taking away doesn't even exist because all the classes already have those skills. Protect is not currently unique to White Mage, every bleedin' healer has access to it. Giving Astrologian and Scholar their own spins on the same effect doesn't result in "Now they're just the same Job!", because nothing has really changed. Astrologian and Scholar already use Protect in the exact same way White Mage does. Giving Scholar Libra and Astrologian Phalanx does not result in them copying White Mage, because Libra and Phalanx can function differently to Protect. The alternative we're currently stuck with is all three using Protect. That weakens White Mages class-identity, because it's skill (Protect) is not unique to it.

This is essentially just asking for the same approach roles are handled in to be applied to the cross class skills. All DPS deal DPS, but they deal DPS differently. Dragoon, Monk, and Ninja do not play the same, so why should 5 of their skills (the cross-class ones) be carbon copies of each other? This isn't dumbing down the game. It isn't reducing button presses. It's not removing the need to play other classes. This is not skill bloat. It's not removing class-identity, it's building it. What negative is there here? All I'm seeing is that you're worried about SE doing something entirely different to what is being suggested...

You want invigorate go level lancer, or raging strikes go level archer, just like all of us did before but don't nerf the new content in order to have SE to do the work for you.

That's just the thing... I don't want Invigorate... I want Ninja to have its own unique spin on self TP recovery, not the exact same thing Dragoon has.

I'm not even suggesting we should just get such skills without playing other classes, either... I out right said they can just make the quest for Ninjas own spin on Second Wind require finishing the Pugilist questline, likewise Ninjas own spin on Invigorate can require completing the Lancer questline. You'd still have to level the appropriate class, you'd just be getting a unique skill that builds upon the Jobs identity and mechanics, instead of literally copying another Job.

[Synrin]

I'm sorry, but I really do not see how you're throwing a "That's just simplifying things" spin on this...

Read the OP and then through the thread and tell me again that they are not asking for less buttons to press, easier mechanics, easier rotations... This entire idea is not about the class identity to begin with, it doesn't touch that at any point of it being suggested, it was never take into consideration rather it is just 'remove cross-class actions in favor of the same only reworked actions that may or may not improve your class' fantasy'. This idea is raw and unpolished. I won't argue any point until the idea has been developed and presented in its entirety. But what I will do is tell people when they are being irrational and not taking all the POVs into consideration. And what about the fact that we might get only jobs henceforth, and no more classes? Cross-actions will become outdated, yes. There is two aspects to be considered here, both mechanincs and class fantasies.

EDIT: The way you expressed your idea is better than the OP's. Maybe there is hope.

[Nalien]

The way you expressed your idea is better than the OP's. Maybe there is hope.

That's my point.

You want someone to polish the suggestion, I did. That's why I'm so bleedin' confused here...

Having Second Wind on Ninja does not add to Ninjas identity, meanwhile there is a heal skill NPC Ninjas use (Suiyaku), which... You know... Would... Add to that the potential for these to be earned from "optional" quests, and you've provided more lore to the Jobs than before, while providing unique skills that fill the same function as the existing cross-class skills. That's not to say Suiyaku should be a carbon copy of Second Wind, it could be more/less potent, have a shorter/longer cooldown, could tie into existing Ninja mechanics (the Venoms), etc. etc.. Overall that does a lot more for class identity than setting Second Wind...

And for those worried about the fact that cross-class skills exist to have you "sample" other Jobs... Well, Jobs already do that, and such quests could carry on the additional class requirement the first Job quests had. Even tie in with the old classes; The quest for Suiyaku could have you taking your Ninja friends to Ul'dah to learn from the Pugilists, for example. Naturally you'd need Pugilist leveled for that. Actually having quests like that would make it far more obvious what skills you want to set as well. There would be no Warriors who don't know what Provoke is, because they'd see the quest unlocking their version of Provoke and work towards doing that quest.

That's pretty much the entirety of my suggestion. That's the post you quoted, either there is a flaw with it or there isn't.

And what about the fact that we might get only jobs henceforth, and no more classes? Cross-actions will become outdated, yes. There is two aspects to be considered here, both mechanincs and class fantasies.

Touched on this last page, too. If, instead of seeing Second Wind, Ninja gets a quest to unlock Suiyaku, then SE can essentially break the mould with the existing cross-class restrictions. They don't have to limit use to two classes, because they can simply give us the skills we "need" and remove the complete illusion of choice we currently have (nobody in their right mind would set Cure on Scholar, for example). Since it becomes tied to quests, rather than just what classes you've leveled, they could essentially include new Jobs in this as well. They're not stuck saying "This new tank needs to use cross-class skills from Gladiator and Warrior because it absolutely needs Provoke", they can bend the rules and do something entirely different. It can get Provoke (or rather a version of Provoke) from a quest that requires Gladiator leveled, and then it can get something entirely different from another class. It wouldn't be stuck with redundant options like Savage Blade.

[Synrin]

You want someone to polish the suggestion, I did. That's why I'm so bleedin' confused here...

I think you added the last paragraph in your edit, and I had posted before that. The last paragraph I like. I wouldn't mind SCH getting their own type of Protect where they can shield in maybe a different fashion for the 30 mins, but at the same time, the idea of having people level different classes for certain actions is in SE's interest. a) played time b) getting to explore the game

Removing the cross-class actions and implementing perhaps 5 new job-unique actions instead in the new expansion (like we got in HW) would take development, testing, and balancing. It would take time and effort. So in the end it's up to the dev team, not us. Interesting suggestion nonetheless. And still a bloody shame people can't cope with 3 action bars. I just get defensive about FFXIV because I have seen what has happened to good games exactly due to people wanting it to be easier and faster..

[Cherie]

Personally I think the cross class system is working as intended...

Instead of some new job specific skills that emulate the existing cross class skills, I think it would be better for them to tweak existing job skills or add new ones. The devs can only have so many focuses...

I don't think it was the OPs intention, but like, generally when I hear people being unsatisfied with getting cross class skills, it's because they don't want to level another job.. XD But I was pleasantly surprised this thread was about something different... kudos But yea, in the case of that, I never had a problem of leveling another job, cause there are dozens of ways to do it and none of them require actually learning how to play the job.

[Nalien]

I think you added the last paragraph in your edit, and I had posted before that.

I posted that entire thing last night. You quoted it today. Water under the bridge though, lets forget it.

I wouldn't mind SCH getting their own type of Protect where they can shield in maybe a different fashion for the 30 mins, but at the same time, the idea of having people level different classes for certain actions is in SE's interest. a) played time b) getting to explore the game

Like I said, the quest to unlock these new skills can require classes leveled in the same fashion unlocking Protect for Scholar already works. Arguably better. You only need Lv8 Conjurer to get Protect for all your healers. I'd suggest the quests that replace cross-class skills require you to complete the class quests completely (so Lv30 required). You'd take your Scholar trainer NPC, and go to the Conjurer guild to borrow their lore (which we essentially already do with cross-class skills) and build something entirely unique from it.

It would take time and effort. So in the end it's up to the dev team, not us.

Of course, but these forums are for feedback, and my feedback can be summed up as; "Cross-class skills are kinda stupid, here's a better alternative".

[CosmicKirby]

There are some exceptions (B4B is level 34, and while the process isn't long, its atrocious to be a pre-28 lancer), and the way it is now, you're essentially forced to pick up some key abilties (specifically provoke) if you want to have any shot at an endgame fight. While the game has a focus on being able to as any job, it shouldn't be forced to that degree.

Much less some classes benefit from cross classing drastically more than others.

For example, while MCH gets access to a slew of DPS essential cooldowns, they are also the only physical attacker class who don't get access to Second Wind, and they only have access for a single defensive cooldown (Keen Flurry) which comes at the cost of selective, Feint or Quelling Strikes, both of which are arguably more useful.

[Kaurie]

Personally, I'd like either

a) Cross class skills removed, and skills replaced in a streamlined fashion (i.e. SCH gets some form of Cleric Stance, but not necessarily cleric stance).

b) Cross class skills increased, so that there is a choice of which skills you cross over. Currently you choose 5 of what, 7 ish? And usually at least 2 of them are completely useless (Cure for SCH, no thanks have Physick).

[Alistaire]

All this talk about "class identity" like it's a good thing; as long as we have df content we need class consistency, not class identity. Terrible idea OP.

[RiceisNice]

All this talk about "class identity" like it's a good thing; as long as we have df content we need class consistency, not class identity. Terrible idea OP.

We want jobs to fulfill the same role, but not do it in the same manner. Mch and brd for example draw so many parallels to each other, compared to say Blm and smn. Otherwise we'd just end up with reskins of jobs which cuts into the games replay value and the horizon of playing different jobs.