Ilberd

[Theodric]

Eh, I'm not particularly interested in addressing the flawed analogy that 'Garleans are like Hitler'. It's a very, very flawed argument and a clear case of Godwin's Law in effect. I also feel like it does the developers a major disservice - because so far they've done an excellent job at portraying antagonists and protagonists alike as very complex in terms of both their morality and their reasoning.

Yet it's clear that this isn't going anywhere, so let's just agree to disagree, eh?

[PArcher]

Eh, I'm not particularly interested in addressing the flawed analogy that 'Garleans are like Hitler'. It's a very, very flawed argument and a clear case of Godwin's Law in effect.

Except that's not the comparison being made. The atrocities from the Nazis just happen to be one of the best ways to illustrate the point; any group that did something evil because they were told to would have worked (and you'd probably give the same excuse, but whatever)

Following orders does not excuse your behavior. Just because you are told to go out and murder someone doesn't make it OK to the victim's family and friends.


The Garleans in Eorzea are here to conquer, and the tactics they are using are brutal, often immoral and just plain evil. What happened at the Waking Sands after Titan is a clear illustration of this, and if you talk to the one NPC there throughout the AAR story, you get a painting of what they did to Ala Mihgo (and its not pretty either). Then there's them wanting to exterminate anyone/thing who has the *potential* to summon a Primal (which, funnily enough, is now nearly their entire empire, maybe even themselves, after the Ishgardians effectively summoned two Primals [Shiva and Thordan])


Don't forget, "all that evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing". If those invading Garleans are "good", they are doing nothing by following orders, and letting evil win.

[MaikoRaines]

The Garleans in Eorzea are here to conquer, and the tactics they are using are brutal, often immoral and just plain evil. What happened at the Waking Sands after Titan is a clear illustration of this, and if you talk to the one NPC there throughout the AAR story, you get a painting of what they did to Ala Mihgo (and its not pretty either). Then there's them wanting to exterminate anyone/thing who has the *potential* to summon a Primal (which, funnily enough, is now nearly their entire empire, maybe even themselves, after the Ishgardians effectively summoned two Primals [Shiva and Thordan]).

And this is why my lance will sing the hymn of the reaper if and when we take action against them.

[Kallera]

And this is why my lance will sing the hymn of the reaper if and when we take action against them.

genocide on the garleans?

[CyrilLucifer]

genocide on the garleans?

Because criticizing the Garleans for genocide and then threatening mass murder in return is all the rage, donchaknow?

[Magis]

Take a page from real life; how many Nazis that killed millions of people in the death camps were just "following orders"?

No, "following orders" isn't an excuse, and doesn't make you some innocent victim.

Actually, some of the German army were conscripts of lands they took over (yay IRL parallels). How do you feel about say the Czech who were forced into the army against their will (do it or get shot)? Funny enough, if you watch Saving Private Ryan... it subtly touches on that point. After the Americans take over the beach on D-Day, there are two surrendering "Germans", with their hands up and are pleading to surrender in "German". Except they weren't, they were speaking Czech: "Please don't shoot me, I am not German, I am Czech, I didn't kill anyone!". The US soldiers didn't understand, and shot them on sight making jokes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCbW7Gkgu2U (Scene)

So let's bring it back to the Garleans; It's been established that most of the soldiers (especially the magic users since Garleans can't use magic) are from captured lands, specifically Ala Mahigo. A survivor of an ambushed battalion even says so in La Noscea, saying they weren't even Garlean and were forced into the war. He just wanted to go home and see their family again. I'd say a lot of these people are victims from both sides.

[Alberel]

Actually, some of the German army were conscripts of lands they took over (yay IRL parallels). How do you feel about say the Czech who were forced into the army against their will (do it or get shot)? Funny enough, if you watch Saving Private Ryan... it subtly touches on that point. After the Americans take over the beach on D-Day, there are two surrendering "Germans", with their hands up and are pleading to surrender in "German". Except they weren't, they were speaking Czech: "Please don't shoot me, I am not German, I am Czech, I didn't kill anyone!". The US soldiers didn't understand, and shot them on sight making jokes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCbW7Gkgu2U (Scene)

So let's bring it back to the Garleans; It's been established that most of the soldiers (especially the magic users since Garleans can't use magic) are from captured lands, specifically Ala Mahigo. A survivor of an ambushed battalion even says so in La Noscea, saying they weren't even Garlean and were forced into the war. He just wanted to go home and see their family again. I'd say a lot of these people are victims from both sides.

Thanks for reminding people of this. It is far too easy to demonise an enemy based on the actions of a few simply by association. This tendency is one of the greatest human flaws and probably the single greatest cause for Man's atrocities against fellow Man. Nothing is EVER black and white in reality and FFXIV has done a good job of reflecting this in its story so far. Even the Ascians aren't all pure evil as demonstrated by Elidibus (plus we still don't know the full story behind their motivations yet).

With regards to the "following orders" excuse... It's all too easy to say that it doesn't absolve you of your crime when you personally weren't in that situation. Any soldier to refuse such an order was shot on sight (and yes there actually WERE some). Somehow I imagine most of the people in this thread would likely have followed such orders if under the threat of being killed themselves. Humans become irrational and willing to do horrific things when their life is at stake. This is a very morally grey area.

[MaikoRaines]

genocide on the garleans?

No, just ones that get in my way. As I mentioned I am sure not all Garleans are bad people. But good people follow horrible orders and uphold horrible values in service to that evil ruler. It doesn't mean they're all bad... and it's nothing personal.

[Theodric]

No, just ones that get in my way. As I mentioned I am sure not all Garleans are bad people. But good people follow horrible orders and uphold horrible values in service to that evil ruler. It doesn't mean they're all bad... and it's nothing personal.

There's nothing to suggest that Varis is 'evil'. He's simply very driven and more than willing to make harsh decisions and sacrifices for the 'greater good'. Something that the WoL and Scions do themselves on a smaller scale. Like I mentioned earlier, though, most people here don't have a clue when it comes to the morality that comes with war and all the nastiness that accompanies it on both sides. People also like to cling to their personal headcanon to push the agenda of most Garleans being 'irredeemably evil' despite us knowing very little about their motivations, justifications or history.

This is a setting that explicitly avoids painting any character or faction as outright evil. It's highly unlikely that the Garleans will turn out to be irredeemably evil. They're antagonists rather than villains. I mean, sure, it might be the case that they're all deranged and unstable - but until we get actual confirmation for a bold claim like that then it's a moot point. Go back a year or so and people would think that the Dravanians were mindless, evil and without any justifications for their actions. Some people thought the same of the Ishgardians - and yet when we actually saw them both in action things were much more morally complex than a lot of people initially assumed.

Say what you will about the Archbishop's action's but his reasoning was pretty sound. It wasn't the best route he could have taken but it's not as if he was doing what he did for the sake of being irredeemably evil. For all we know a similar tale will play out with Garlemald.

[CyrusArjuna]

I wonder why more people tend to ignore the obvious parallels between the Garleans and Romans when talking IRL inspirations. For all we know, the forced rape we heard about once in ARR was something the lower level soldiers took part of? And the brainwashing thing might have been a VIIth legion thing. I mean, Nael was brainwashed and Tempered, maybe this compelled him to Temper other soldiers? Nothing really shows them being state sanctioned like others have said. The Romans conscripted soldiers from the territories they captured, but they tended to reward service to the Empire with citizenship that afforded them certain rights and privileges that non-citizens didn't get. So far our picture of Garlemald is biased in Eorzea's favor, just like how our view of the Dravanians and Ishgard were colored by lack of information.