Ilberd

[Morningstar1337]

I think a lot of people just refuse to consider that maybe, just maybe, Garlemald is more complex than being another dull and stereotypical 'evil empire'. Very little in this game's lore has ever been presented as purely 'good' or purely 'evil'. Why would they make Garlemald the exception, especially when they've already taken steps to make the place morally grey rather than morally black?

...

As for not being able to 'sympathise' with Garlemald, I thoroughly contest that. You don't need to approve of everything that a nation or society does in order to sympathise with them. For all we know there's a fairly good reason as to why Garlemald is so aggressive - if they were pushed around, for example, and it turns out that initially they weren't the aggressors and were pushed around back when they were a weaker nation then that changes quite a lot of things. Putting that aside, however, since it's only speculation...

Regarding the first point, as much as I want to see otherwise, so far it appears that Hyealyn is more Grey and Black to me. Without evience or headcanon, much of the Greyness stems mostly from Eorzea's side and the antagonist (at least the major players) have been depicted as thoroughly evil with precedents serving more to support it than oppose it.

For this example, I shall first detail Elidibus. The precedents here is the fact that Ascians in general are manipulative an underhanded. They take on the act of paragons to entice the Beast Tribes to summon thier Primals an use them to sow the seed sow discord to later reap when they ripen. Even i the seed takes several era to flowish (such as Bahamut, who the Ascians taught to summon an contain, with their payout happening 4-6 eras later). They are not the trustworthy paragons they oft pretend to be and it stands to reason that Elidibus is no exception until the story says otherwise, regardless of he agrees with his peers or not.

As for Garlemald, It stands to reason that I have to agree with Enkidoh here. The precedents are either muddled (Gaius and his Legion going rouge) or serve to prove my point (Note how Varis got the crown and what he did for celebration, that doesn't seem like someone leading a good country)

As for the "sympathetic" point, that is a double edge sword you're wielding, one that can be applied to the Skeletons in Eorzea's closets and the elepahnts in the room (or Brume in Ishgard's case. FATE reference intended )

As for your argument for them having a Freudian Excuse, I don't think can fly since for all we know, they either have none as part of the precedents or their only good reasons are to emulate the Allagan Empire (Which I think is just as comparable to Rome as Garlemald is.

The thing is, as it stands the Story seems to be having a Sympathetic POV thing (makes sense since at least Heavenward's story is Edmont's memoirs). As I mention an I;m sure you will mention on other threads, there are Skeletons in Eorzea's closet, elephants in the room and other things that show that They are not as much different from their opponents as they believe, things like Ul'Dah's Zombie Powder and use of Slaves. Limsa's Piracy, Gridania's xenophobia, Ishgard's inequality and fundamentalism amount the citizens an Ala Mhigo's Autumn War an the culture surrounding it between then and their sacking by Garlemald. The precedent is against Erorzea as much as it is Garlemald and the Ascians, but since we went to Eorzea first and saw it under attack by Garlemald... well I'm sure you know how important first impressions are right?

Now that I think about I wonder if Sins of the Ancestors is a theme in this game/expansion.

Who knows, maybe the POV will change if an only if we get other other side of the story.

[Zohar_Lahar]

That may be, but SE themselves have never shown themselves as taking that view, always referring or depicting the Empire as nothing other than evil, all conquering warmongers utterly convinced of their own superiority

I see you have not played Final Fantasy XII.

[Enkidoh]

I see you have not played Final Fantasy XII.

Uh, I was referring to FFXIV and the Garlean Empire, not the use of Empires in the FF series in general (yes I know the Archadian Empire in FFXII is not quite so clear cut as antagonists - I finished FFXII years ago), so I stand by my comments.

[Theodric]

Oh, is anyone here at all surprised that my avatar is a Garlean for April Fool's day?

How fitting.

[Rocl]

Oh, is anyone here at all surprised that my avatar is a Garlean for April Fool's day?

How fitting.

I know they couldn't have personally assigned each person's avatar but some of them do seem oddly fitting...

[CyrilLucifer]

I know they couldn't have personally assigned each person's avatar but some of them do seem oddly fitting...

Should I be offended?

Also, Favor 3.0 with the males, but still no Elidibus option.

SE.
SE plz.

[Kallera]

I know they couldn't have personally assigned each person's avatar but some of them do seem oddly fitting...

Lies. All lies!

Lies must be purged!

[Rocl]

Should I be offended?

Should I? I don't even know how to take some of these characters!

[Rhodkr]

Honestly, we really haven't seen any Garlean Civilians. All we have encountered thus far are war parties. I'd be interested if the next expansion (provided its Ala Mhigo) involves some citizens. I mean, I can imagine a campaign back in Garlemald asking civilians to move into their new city-state, promising a 'new start', some benefits and the like. It being 25 years is long enough to have an entire generation of Garleans having never stepped foot into Garlemald.

If Ala Mhigo is liberated, then what of those citizens who moved there? Some people can say move out, the building might have been wrong,y taken in the first place. But what would happen to Mr and Mrs So and So and their little bakery? They might not have the Gil to up and move out. Also once liberated I can foresee a ton of issues, innocent people being dragged out onto the streets and being murdered by resistance because they're Garlean. It can get very very morally grey very quickly. It would be interesting to see if and how SE will try to address it.

[Theodric]

Well, ideally that is what will happen. More ideally those civilians will not simply be written as wanting to defect and side with Eorzea. That's my biggest issue with Cid and Lucia. Neither of them feel particularly realistic to me and their selfishness is brushed aside and ignored. Sure, they sided with Eorzea but that doesn't make them the 'good guys'. How many innocent civilians and soldiers died on Garlemald's side, I wonder, because of secrets leaked by the pair of them? How many former friends and allies did they screw over by siding with Eorzea? I'd like for them to take heavy inspiration from Final Fantasy Tactics when it comes to the consequences of such actions. Though it'll be a while until we see it, I suppose.

I still like the idea of having to eliminate both the extremist elements of Garlemald in Ala Mhigo and dismantle the Ala Mhigan Resistance. Many atrocities have been committed in the name of Ala Mhigo, after all, so if Ilberd takes control of it...there will be a lot of innocent blood shed. He's even killed his own people as seen with Wilred, if I recall correctly. For extra points, I'm hoping Yda and Papalymo side with him and are called out on their stupidity and tarnish the Scion's reputation in the process.We could definitely use the Scions being forced to be humbled somehow.