Ilberd

[myahele]

It relly depends, there are plenty allagan creation that are up an running. Proto-Ultima being one of them

[Theodric]

I think it's very likely that Ilberd will do something idiotic in the name of Ala Mhigo. I think he also stands to seize control of the Ala Mhigan resistance - which will put us at odds with Yda and Papalymo if they get involved too. This would make there be more room for intrigue and depth in a potential Ala Mhigan expansion since we'd want to eliminate the fanatically loyal Garleans and the fanatically loyal Ala Mhigans. Both will no doubt risk the lives of innocents in the name of their respective causes and at this point Ala Mhigo is full of both Ala Mhigans and Garleans - many of which may very well be friends.

Or at least I'd hope that would be the case. When Rabanastre was taken over by the Archadian Empire there was a lot of tension, yes, but many citizens came to admire, respect and even befriend the Archadians in the process. It certainly wasn't black or white and I hope the situation in Ala Mhigo isn't either.

[ZedRivia]

Yeah Rabanastre and Archadian Empire, I miss FF12 days.

[Belhi]

I think it's very likely that Ilberd will do something idiotic in the name of Ala Mhigo. I think he also stands to seize control of the Ala Mhigan resistance - which will put us at odds with Yda and Papalymo if they get involved too. This would make there be more room for intrigue and depth in a potential Ala Mhigan expansion since we'd want to eliminate the fanatically loyal Garleans and the fanatically loyal Ala Mhigans. Both will no doubt risk the lives of innocents in the name of their respective causes and at this point Ala Mhigo is full of both Ala Mhigans and Garleans - many of which may very well be friends.

Or at least I'd hope that would be the case. When Rabanastre was taken over by the Archadian Empire there was a lot of tension, yes, but many citizens came to admire, respect and even befriend the Archadians in the process. It certainly wasn't black or white and I hope the situation in Ala Mhigo isn't either.

I don't know. There are a few sides to this but the more messy it is the more drama. I would like to see a different perspective of Garlean occupation but on the flipside the stuff the Garleans did when they took over is something that would be dumb to whitewash. My memory of FF12 is a little old but I don't remember the Achadian Empire treating Rabanastre in anything close to the same way, ie. brainwashed conscripts killing their families, slave labour and forced prostitution.

As for the Ala Mhigan resistance, I don't think its a singular body but a lose collection of allied groups. I suspect the guys at little Ala Mhigo would have major issues with Ilberd since he murdered one of their number, Wilred.

[Theodric]

-snip-

Isn't a lot of the lore for the more extreme stuff tucked away in 1.0, though? I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it's toned down/ignored. There's a few subtle references to be found here and there in 2.0 and beyond but 2.0/3.0 as a whole is a lot less 'gritty' than 1.0 was. After all, Gridania was a far nastier place back in 1.0. In 2.0 and beyond, however, it has been toned down considerably.

[Belhi]

Isn't a lot of the lore for the more extreme stuff tucked away in 1.0, though? I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it's toned down/ignored. There's a few subtle references to be found here and there in 2.0 and beyond but 2.0/3.0 as a whole is a lot less 'gritty' than 1.0 was. After all, Gridania was a far nastier place back in 1.0. In 2.0 and beyond, however, it has been toned down considerably.

The forced prostitution is from 2.0 as is the forced labour. Conscription is 2.0 but the brainwashed killing families is 1.0 (though 1.0 has been pretty much canon throughout). The whole 'people in occupied and conquered territories aren't even considered citizens in garlean society and infact are considered in a class below citizen' is from a book in the Great Gubal Library.

I'm afraid to say, there is very strong lore to indicate that the Garleans did some really awful stuff to the Ala Mhigans and with the authorisation of the leadership. Hell, we have a half garlean in the Scions in the Waking Sands who is clearly implied to be the offspring of a Ala Mhigan woman raped by a Garlean when the city fell.

[FJerome]

Isn't a lot of the lore for the more extreme stuff tucked away in 1.0, though? I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it's toned down/ignored. There's a few subtle references to be found here and there in 2.0 and beyond but 2.0/3.0 as a whole is a lot less 'gritty' than 1.0 was. After all, Gridania was a far nastier place back in 1.0. In 2.0 and beyond, however, it has been toned down considerably.

The NPCs at the Waking Sands will obliquely discuss how Arenvald is half-Garlean and the product of the mass rapes that happened after Ala Mhigo fell, so yeah, not really toned down that much.

[Theodric]

-snip-

Right, but there's also strong lore to support the idea that Eorzeans have done similar things. Garlemald's expansion is a very recent thing...and as far as atrocities go such things are a fairly standard and grim consequence of war. It is highly likely that Eorzean forces do the same things given the same opportunities. Ishgard went to war over a lie that lasted a thousand years. Anyone who spoke up in that time against the status quo was murdered. We know from what our character uncovered that it wasn't an isolated affair - so the body count of innocents over that time period is no doubt substantial.

Ul'dah was also built on a lie as well given the situation involving Sil'dah. In short, Eorzea is no stranger to dark and twisted actions. Ul'dah and Ishgard are the most prominent, though Ala Mhigo isn't perfect and Gridania/Limsa have their flaws as well. I'm not saying that Garlemald is perfect - but if we can ignore all the bad stuff that the Ishgardians have done then I see no issue giving the Garleans the benefit of the doubt as well. They can't all be bad after all.

I hate to use the comparison but...war time atrocities happen in pretty much every conflict ever - even in the real world. The 'victors' or 'defenders' simply like to paint themselves as 'better' even if that isn't necessarily the case.

[Belhi]

Right, but there's also strong lore to support the idea that Eorzeans have done similar things.

In recent history? Where? The only nation that might apply to is Ishgard and we have tended to overthrow or kill the people behind that in HW, even when they are state sanctioned. Even then, Ishgard was in a war it had no choice but to fight or die with. There was no peaceful option open to them and frankly until we deal with Nidhogg their still isn't.

None of the city states show any sign of using conscription. Gridania has an established military force that makes up its grand companies, Ul'dah is made up of former mercenary groups and Limsa is made up of the former pirate fleets.

Slavery also isn't condoned in any of the modern city states. The closest is indentured servitude which is when someone enters into service to pay off a debt like most of Rowena's workers. Infact in Limsa, a slaver that escapes prosecution from the Yellowjackets runs the risk of getting murdered in their beds because its a breach of the code. As for the price of war, that's a hard call but its worth noting that after the calamity, the Gridanians spent a week on the battlefield recovering and healing both Eorzean and Garlean soldiers alike and sent the Garleans home. Also none of the citystates are actively looking for war. The closest is with the Kobalds. Garlemald is starting all the wars its causing atrocities in.

You sum up the probem. Garlemald's crimes are recent meaning the issues involving those crimes are current. The thing with Sil'dih and the Autumn War with Ala Mhigo are both over a hundred years in the past. Prior to the lead up to the Calamity and Garlemald's invasion Eorzea was relatively peaceful accept for Ishgard. Further Garlemald is the only one conquering the others. Even the Ishgardians are keeping their issues to themselves and we haven't ignored the things the Ishgardians have done. We have killed quite a few Ishgardians in HW.

There is a fundamental difference between what the Garleans are doing and the city states. The Garleans are starting the wars. They are the ones causing the killing, the violence and the atrocities. If your really expecting Garlemald to be like Ishgard expect us to kill off the extremist leadership and put a more moderate, peace loving leadership in instead.

[Frederick22]

Speaking on Garlemand. There is some poeple that suspect that could be Gaius ( I that possible? ) based on the mask and that "only garleans hide their faces". I could very wel be Ilberd, that guy is not a fool, he cannot just step into the Ala mhigo resistence specting he will recieve a nice welcome after is very well know that he killed one of his own country men. If I was he, I would use a mask too.