Thread: WAR MT Opener

I'm still working on my opener as to be able to comfortably DPS in Deliverance afterwards so it's still a work in progress for me but there a few pointers I'd like to stress out:

1. Always open with Overpower since it has a massive 5x Enmity Multiplier over Tomahawks 3x, with the recent DPS nerf every bit of extra enmity in the opener is essential.
2. I'd always place Brutal Swing right after Eye as to maximize its potency (more damage and enmity).
3. Bloodbath has a pretty long duration so it can be used earlier in the rotation.
4. You can always double weave Inner Release and Berserk in between one GCD, always recommend you use Inner Release first tho as every extra second of berserk is way more important than Inner Release.
5. You want your potion to reach all the way until Fell Cleave so make sure its positioned in a way where it lasts enough, I haven't tested it enough (as I don't use pots in pug content and I haven't had the chance to raid much yet). But I think you might be using it a tad early.
6. I wouldn't burn a cooldown RIGHT at the start as most bosses don't hit that hard RIGHT off the bat, you already have mitigation in the way of Bloodbath zerk, save Thrill for later in the fight when you need it.

Right now I have two openers I'm currently working on optimizing.

The Generate a Crap load of Enmity in the opener: This one will ensure that you have as MUCH hate as possible on you, you should never lose hate to DPS if you use this but too much enmity isn't a good thing either. So I think this Double Fell Cleave Opener might be more efficient. I have yet to properly test it under heavy fire (i.e. a Dragoon with a crazy opener). So it's something I'm currently testing. With enough SS This opener should also be possible.

Basically you want to generate as much enmity as possible to dps in Deliverance afterwards (assuming the boss doesn't hit THAT hard) but without generating an excess that leads to a DPS loss, a happy medium.

1. Tomahawk is still good if you need to reposition a boss when you pull as OP has a shorter distance.
2. Putting BS at the start allows you to get in 1 BS before anything and then again during Maim/Eye/Berserk/etc.
3. Using Bloodbath after Berserk maximizes it's output, which is why it's used in the next free oGCD point.
4. The reason for using Thrill in place of IR is to allow IR to catch the FC/IB/Fracture as well as allow for Thrill to be used sooner rather than later, though as I said you can really fit it in wherever as long as it's still under the affect of the VIT pot.
5. Having the potion reach all the way to FC/IB is ideal, however the sooner you use your potion the sooner it'll be back up and if you use it after Berserk you're wasting potential damage just to boost 1 GCD, which imo is unoptimal.
6. VIT pot + Thrill is to give you maximum opening mitigation to allow both healers to DPS as much as possible while RoD is going, or just in general. Combining the two allows for maximization of Thrill's healing and eHP increase as it's based on max HP, which is increased after you use the VIT pot (as long as the VIT pot is still active, you'll get the full effect of the heal).

Any opener that doesn't use Berserk and IR but starts with Eye is likely to get hate ripped hard from them. Maybe a NIN could prevent it, but I really doubt it. My opener's intent is to generate massive threat to then ride until... well, as long as you can ride it, as well as incorporate Thrill with your opening VIT pot. As an example, in A5S if the Thrill doesn't catch the cleaves (which I believe it should), you'll still have Vengeance + RI available for them. Having access to these, as well as Holmgang, means that using Thrill at the start to create a large HP buffer is generally (imo) a good idea. I could be wrong, I'm open to discuss it, but I don't buy "you already have enough mitigation" as bosses auto pretty heavily now and allowing healers as much time in their opener to DPS seems like the ideal way to go.

e: Also, you'll gain more DPS from getting the highest threat lead possible as it will allow for more time in Deliverance as well as allow you to put up Path as MT more often (which is a DPS loss, but can be extremely valuable if needed).

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

1. Tomahawk is still good if you need to reposition a boss when you pull as OP has a shorter distance.

This is true but 90% of the cases position of the boss is pretty much irrelevant right at the very start, most tanks just place bosses towards the middle facing away from the party, as you said yourself...

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

you'll gain more DPS from getting the highest threat lead possible as it will allow for more time in Deliverance as well as allow you to put up Path as MT more often (which is a DPS loss, but can be extremely valuable if needed).

So yeah, More enmity is more desirable in most situations. The rule, not the exception. The only time I'd want to use Tomahawk is when I want to move the boss TOWARDS the group (i.e. the Second boss in Stone Vigil). If I need to position the boss anywhere away from the party then positioning isn't a problem with overpower as you'll be moving in that direction anyway.

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

2. Putting BS at the start allows you to get in 1 BS before anything and then again during Maim/Eye/Berserk/etc.

It's about the same if you place BS right after Eye, usually BS is up around the same spot in your rotation during your next cycle + 1 GCD, i.e. if you used it right after tomakawk it should be available right after heavy swing (before your next Maim). It really makes very little difference if you delay it two GCDs, except that you're going to hit harder with it and generate slightly more enmity. If you feel happy placing it so early then go ahead, it makes very little difference in the long term. You'll be able to throw in as many BS either way.

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

3. Using Bloodbath after Berserk maximizes it's output, which is why it's used in the next free oGCD point.

Bloodbath's Maximum output is done as long as it lasts for the entire duration of Berserk, if it lasts longer before or after berserk does not lower its efficiency at all. Bloodbath lasts an entire 10 seconds longer than Berserk so if you cast berserk within those 10 seconds you're at maximum efficiency.

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

4. The reason for using Thrill in place of IR is to allow IR to catch the FC/IB/Fracture as well as allow for Thrill to be used sooner rather than later, though as I said you can really fit it in wherever as long as it's still under the affect of the VIT pot.

The same can be said about every other cooldown? Why burn a cooldown you don't need anyway? Thrill is kinda like the equivalent of Rampart or Shadowskin for Warrior (roughly a 20% boost in mitigation). The sooner its used it will be available again, I just don't see why you'd burn it when most bosses don't start hitting hard right away, if there is some sort of tankbuster coming in during the opener then sure, go ahead. But otherwise? It's kinda just a waste of a cooldown. I wouldn't use it on EVERY opener.

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

5. Having the potion reach all the way to FC/IB is ideal, however the sooner you use your potion the sooner it'll be back up and if you use it after Berserk you're wasting potential damage just to boost 1 GCD, which imo is suboptimal.

Most encounters will be over before you can ever use a pot again anyway and the difference in seconds isn't going to matter in a fight long enough to give you the chance to throw in two pots. That extra GCD (Fell Cleave) is a sizeable chunk of your DPS so yeah, boosting it as much as possible is in your interest so, IMO, it seems suboptimal to place it there that early.

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

6. VIT pot + Thrill is to give you maximum opening mitigation to allow both healers to DPS as much as possible while RoD is going, or just in general. Combining the two allows for maximization of Thrill's healing and eHP increase as it's based on max HP, which is increased after you use the VIT pot (as long as the VIT pot is still active, you'll get the full effect of the heal).

This is true but why need it during an opener? Most of the time you don't need THAT much mitigation as you pull. I'd rather have thrill ready when i need it and not "as early as possible".

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Any opener that doesn't use Berserk and IR but starts with Eye is likely to get hate ripped hard from them. Maybe a NIN could prevent it, but I really doubt it.

This could be true since, like i said, my opener is a work in progress. The patch is too new and I haven't had the opportunity to properly test it under fire. All I can say is as followed...
A) With a NIN the opener generates a LOT of enmity so it's a none-issue.
B) Without a NIN I have had no problem keeping hate from most DPS, the ONLY thing that worries me are Dragoons as I haven't had the opportunity to test it with a really good dragoon.

So no, any opener that doesn't use IR and Zerk right at the start won't loose hate right away, that's one of the reasons I use overpower instead of tomahawk and why I delay BS until after eye. Granted though, this point is up for argument, haven't tested it enough to stress the point. But I believe that it's something worth experimenting with as there is a thing as too much hate and it doesn't give you any tangible benefit as WAR benefits from using its enmity combo within it's DPS rotation.

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

My opener's intent is to generate massive threat to then ride until... well, as long as you can ride it, as well as incorporate Thrill with your opening VIT pot. As an example, in A5S if the Thrill doesn't catch the cleaves (which I believe it should), you'll still have Vengeance + RI available for them. Having access to these, as well as Holmgang, means that using Thrill at the start to create a large HP buffer is generally (imo) a good idea.

i haven't done A5S just yet so I can't honestly comment, you could be right but, like i said, if there are no tank busters at the very start it seems like a waste. If you will get hit hard right off the bat though, then your idea sounds extremely good.

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I could be wrong, I'm open to discuss it, but I don't buy "you already have enough mitigation" as bosses auto pretty heavily now and allowing healers as much time in their opener to DPS seems like the ideal way to go.

If you're taking heavy damage right off the start the main healer will most likely focus on toping you off rather than pushing numbers as high as possible. Granted though, this boils down to the amount of damage intake during the initial pull. If it's high then sure but if it's just boss auto-attacking with a few cleaves then it might be best to just save it. Most healers will want to play it safe as they are learning regardless (at least the main healer).

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

e: Also, you'll gain more DPS from getting the highest threat lead possible as it will allow for more time in Deliverance as well as allow you to put up Path as MT more often (which is a DPS loss, but can be extremely valuable if needed).

This is actually very true, if we assume that you're going to open and stay as MT then you are probably right but a few things...
IMO,

A) Bosses in 4 man content don't hit hard enough to justify Path, you'll be sticking to Eye -> Butchers and that already generates a lot of enmity.
B) In most raid situations WAR is hardly asked to do the initial pull so it's probably best to depend on the MT to generate as much hate as possible for you to use Path reliably when a tank swap is necessary.

Granted, like you said, I'm still experimenting so I'm also open for suggestions. This is mostly my preliminary ideas.

Sorry to double post but...

I'd like to add that I placed This opener (Double Fell Cleave) to the test today by asking a DRG friend (he manages a 2k+ opener and has sustained 1.4k+ DPS) to try and rip hate from me (dummy test). I never lost emnity and never had to stance dance back into Defiance, we did this until he ran out of TP. He did get somewhat close towards the end but he was out of TP and had already used invigorate.

Just wanted to say that this is entirely viable as far as hate goes. This of course does not factor fights where damage output is high (like Savage or Extreme raids).