Aymeric (SPOILERS)

[Kallera]

And I'm surprised by how many people think Aymeric is going to throw Estinien away....
I know a lot of people see him as being too "perfect" and are convinced there's a darker/ evil/ different side to his nature we've not seen, but I think we've already seen both sides of him...

"If I stray in my remarks, I ask that you trust my judgement..." not sure where he did...which leaves what we didn't hear.

I don't think it is a matter of there being a darker side to him so much that it plays to a tragic flaw. Right now, the only people we know are resolved to save Estinien now are our character and Alphinaud. Unless this was stated earlier in heavensward, I think Aymeric doesn't know of this. what he does know is that he tried swinging for the fences on peace multiple times and they have been ending in disaster.

Right now, the Nidhogg possesed Estinien offers a tempting target: peace cannot be earned while Nidhogg lives, and through this, there is more to gain with Estinien's corpse than his friendship. By killing him and making it clear Nidhogg is dead, Aymeric gains the peace with the dragons, silence from dissenters, and Ishgard's freedom from the Dragonsong war. Literally everything to gain for him and those interested in those goals, and so little to lose.

all Aymeric needs to do is kill one angry, vengeful, dragon possessed friend already out for his hide to get it.

in contrast, Alphinaud and the main character's reason for saving Estinien are personal and complex, he is a friend, and having seen enough friends die to our enemies, we don't want to abandon him to the monsterous Nidhogg. We're not even sure of how, only that we must try to save him, not merely for his sake, but our own.

Unless someone gives up here, this is a plot powder keg dying to go off.

[Lunaxia]

"If I stray in my remarks, I ask that you trust my judgement..." not sure where he did...which leaves what we didn't hear.

I don't think it is a matter of there being a darker side to him so much that it plays to a tragic flaw. Right now, the only people we know are resolved to save Estinien now are our character and Alphinaud. Unless this was stated earlier in heavensward, I think Aymeric doesn't know of this.

Right now, the Nidhogg possesed Estinien offers a tempting target: peace cannot be earned while Nidhoog lives. by killing him and making it clear he is dead, Aymeric gains the peace with the dragons, silence from dissenters, and Ishgard's freedom from the Dragonsong war. Literally everything to gain for him and those interested in those goals, and so little to lose.

all Aymeric needs to do is kill one angry, vengeful, dragon possessed friend already out for his hide to get it.

in contrast, Alphinaud and the main character's reason for saving Estinien are personal and complex, he is a friend, and having seen enough friends die to our enemies, we don't want to abandon him to the monsterous Nidhogg. We're not even sure of how, only that we must try.

Unless someone gives up here, this is a plot powder keg dying to go off.

We can't ever know for certain, of course, but I think he was probably going to give a predictable "let man and dragon make a new start as friends etc. etc." speech, but after the protester incident he ended up changing it to acknowledging what the people of Ishgard have gone through but asking them to let go of it for the sake of the future.

We don't know that Aymeric isn't resolved to rescuing Estinien, though - he's been quiet on this since it happened, and the end of this patch's MSQ was the first time we've seen him be directly confronted with it (which leads me to believe this will be brought up as an important point in 3.3.) Killing Estinien isn't "so little to lose" for him, either - his emotions will be even more complex than Alphinaud's due to their history together.

I predict him being pressured by Ishgard to sacrifice Estinien, and possibly giving the appearance of going along with it or being indifferent - then ultimately reveal he's been planning a way to save him all along. A lot of his moments in the MSQ hint towards this.

Either way, I just hope he doesn't turn out to be a second Haurchefant... the sudden focus on his and the WoL's relationship has me worried.

[CyrilLucifer]

I don't think he's going to turn into a second Haurchefant. However, as I said in the pre-3.2 threads, he's challenging us for our title of purest pure purity in all Eorzea. 3.2 has pushed that even harder and, honestly, I'm starting to find it a bit annoying in how perfect he is portrayed; even if he's flawed, it's the portrayal that counts, and in 3.2 he's portrayed as a big good.

Compare that to, say, Merlwyb who flat out messed up the Kobolds with her mistakes, or Nanamo, who was thinking almost too progressively in her attempt to break down barriers, which might have actually caused societal collapse from such a radical, immediate change, and Kan-E-Senna who is unable to act outside of Gridania unless it's an extreme circumstance (as you learn via the WHM questline) no matter how necessary it is, well, you'll see my point in his portrayal. He's forgiving, all for moving forward and focusing on the future, motivational, a skilled warrior and politician, and (seemingly) wants what is best for everyone.

Something's going to happen. I don't think he's going to die, but he's going to make a severe mistake at some point, or break down and be unable to do his job when he absolutely needs to the most, such as from his wound. Or maybe he'll pull a Thancred and work himself half to death, giving Second Best Ascian or Pashtarot a chance to sow his seeds. No lewd, I swear.

The Alex quest cements my theory on this. Aymeric makes a big deal about he's focusing only on the future, but then you have Mide saying it was the focus solely on the future that destroyed her life. That parallel must have been intentional.

[Lunaxia]

I don't think he's going to turn into a second Haurchefant. However, as I said in the pre-3.2 threads, he's challenging us for our title of purest pure purity in all Eorzea. 3.2 has pushed that even harder and, honestly, I'm starting to find it a bit annoying in how perfect he is portrayed.

Something's going to happen. I don't think he's going to die, but he's going to make a severe mistake at some point, or break down.

It's funny you see it that way. Personally, I think his "purest pure purity", as you call it, has been emphasized as his biggest flaw. In some ways he's the typical perfect hero, yes - selfless, humble, wants to save everyone and change the world for the better, and so on. But at the same time, it's that idealism that has caused him to be very naive, and make a lot of mistakes. He wound up imprisoned in the Vault after expecting the Holy See to reveal the truth of the Dragonsong War, and ended up nearly dead and inciting nation wide rebellion in Ishgard in his rush to push the people and dragons together; even Edmont confronts him about the consequences of looking through rose-tinted glasses and tells him to be careful. He also took a lot of risks in 3.2 concerning the conference and the melee, and it's pointed out how much he's coming to rely on the WoL to carry him through them.

He might come across as the perfect good guy, but he's shown some very flawed judgement that has had serious consequences on those around him.

The Alex quest cements my theory on this. Aymeric makes a big deal about he's focusing only on the future, but then you have Mide saying it was the focus solely on the future that destroyed her life. That parallel must have been intentional.

I think we saw this dealt with in 3.2 - the Ishgardian protesters were bitter that he seemed to have turned his back on what they had suffered in the past and was looking only toward the future, which he then addressed in his speech at the end of the MSQ.

[CyrilLucifer]

See, I wouldn't mind him being a deconstruction of the heroic, idealistic archetype, or even a deconstruction and eventual reconstruction, but that's not really how he's being portrayed.

The issue right now is he's layered in absurd amounts of plot armor. That plot armor needs to be broken for it to be a deconstruction and, so far, it hasn't budged. He's overcoming his problems either by luck, skill, or pure WoL brute force.

So no. I don't see him the same way as you at all. In the future when a problem breaks through the plot armor it might turn into a deconstruction, but now? No way. He's competing with us for top seat in the holiness competition.

Hence why I'm fully expecting a game-changing mistake. We made one in Ul'Dah and our character was pretty messed up for it, given how the DRK quest went. That's honestly how I hope Aymeric will flow. I want him to make those mistakes and I want them to have a permanent effect on Ishgard and his psyche, not because I dislike him, but because it makes for a more fleshed out character than one who is able to overcome everything and always does the right thing.

[Wintersandman]

ARR was all about power plays taking place in Ul'dah. This one is the power struggle in Ishgard. Aymeric is at the top of the pyramid vying to create the nation he desires. Idealism isn't always the best quality and even through history comes with sacrifice.

What is more important to Aymeric? His friends or his nation? Would he forsake his friends in order to achieve his goals?

[Yuyuka3]

Hence why I'm fully expecting a game-changing mistake. We made one in Ul'Dah and our character was pretty messed up for it, given how the DRK quest went. That's honestly how I hope Aymeric will flow. I want him to make those mistakes and I want them to have a permanent effect on Ishgard and his psyche, not because I dislike him, but because it makes for a more fleshed out character than one who is able to overcome everything and always does the right thing.

But the thing is, he doesn't do the right thing. He does what he thinks is the right thing - but so far, everything he did had pretty bad consequences, for him and the people around him. The first time he messed up, when he confronted Thordan, he got tortured and one of his close friends (at least I interpret Haurchefant as such...) even got killed. The second time, by rushing the change in Ishgard, he got knifed and we've seen in 3.2 that the wound still affects him. This also directly led to the blood bath in Falcon's Nest. So, I'm sorry, but I agree with Lunaxia... he is too rash, takes too many unnecessary risks.And, sorry, but I think you can't simply overlook the fact that he clearly got critiziced by Count Edmont...

Also, I don't think the scene were he shoots at Estinihogg means he gave up completely on Estinien... he probably just didn't see another way at the moment, and to be honest, even we don't know how and if it is even possible to do anything for him. Besides, he needed be stopped then and there, and personally I found it a nice touch for him to grab a bow, since we know since the 'Tales from the Dragonsong War'-series that he can use one, but have never seen him do so before.

At the topic at large... I don't know. I didn't trust him back when he was first introduced, but that changed quite a bit in the meantime. In 3.2, I got no strange vibes from him, and I didn't see my character's reaction to him as 'heh, he acts weird'. For example in the scene mentioned before when he asks us out for a drink... I always interpreted it as how it was intended, that my characters were just shaken by the loss of a very close friend. But, yes, he relies on us quite a bit - maybe too much. But I got the feeling that might be because he developed some feelings for us... I don't know.
I can only say I love that the WoL finally shows some emotions, and that the situation gets at them!

[Theodric]

Aymeric needs to screw up. I can only echo Cyril in that Aymeric annoys me due to how pure he is. That's also why I disliked Haurchefant - because neither of them feel 'Ishgardian' to me. I dislike it when a character seemingly exists to break all the typical tropes associated with their race. I like Ishgard for being Ishgard and I like Ishgardians who act like Ishgardians. I hope that makes sense?

Estinien and Ysayle were much, much more interesting to me because they had realistic flaws and actually endured consequences for their actions. 3.2 made me appreciate Emmellian a lot more too for the same reason.

[Belhi]

I'm torn with Aymeric. On one hand I agree with the fact he is a little too flawless at the moment and has the answers a little too easily. On the other, Ishgard and its situation is such a ungodly mess it really requires both a outstanding and well intentioned leader to drag it out of the thousand year rut it has been in.

Hey, at least he was slapped down by Raubahn.

To be honest in the current situation Aymeric feels much more like a supporting role in the story development of Ishgard's evolving society as a whole. Aymeric's role is as an implementer. While this sidelines him character development wise, it does allow focus on how Ishgard as a whole is coping with the change. 3.2 was very much a focus on how Ishgard deals with coming to terms with change and how it finds peace between all the pain and loss of its past and the desire and hope for a peaceful future.

[Kallera]

To be honest in the current situation Aymeric feels much more like a supporting role in the story development of Ishgard's evolving society as a whole. Aymeric's role is as an implementer. While this sidelines him character development wise, it does allow focus on how Ishgard as a whole is coping with the change. 3.2 was very much a focus on how Ishgard deals with coming to terms with change and how it finds peace between all the pain and loss of its past and the desire and hope for a peaceful future.

It could well be that Aymeric does succeed and gets everything wrapped up in a bow. :rimshot:.
Or that, seeing the situation, we betray Alphinaud "for the greater good" and kill Estinien ourselves .(that would be far worse as a resolution, imo, though the explanation would be lengthy.)

I'm hoping for something different, as it causes underlying tension seen since 3.0 to come to the surface, and add a second meaning to the "terrible price" in the face of "The right thing". He succeeds, and officially gets the true peace born of killing Nidhogg, but in such a way that it causes conflict among those that had working to achieve it, and unwittingly causes a impasse between the WoL/Alphinaud and the other Scions on what they stand for. I think that is the perfect situation to introduce the WoL finally making their own path.