[SPOILERS] Minfillia' Fate in 3.2

[Fenral]

I think it needs to be said that there is a rather large difference between accepting death and embracing it. Anti-nihilism (a.k.a. the Tao of Minwu) is still a form of nihilism, as deciding to end your own life "nobly" in order to give it meaning is, at the same time, showing a rather alarming disregard for the limitless potential humans have in life and in the struggle to live on.

[Nalien]

Eh...I think the Dragonsong War is a much closer analogy to Final Fantasy X.

Oh sure, never said it wasn't. Thing is, there are parallels between the Dragonsong War and Zodiarks little war as well; That's likely why we have an expansion dealing with both... I just skipped the FFX/Dragonsong War parallels and went straight to the parallels with the topic at hand. The Dragonsong War parallels are fairly obvious;

Ishgard is Bevelle, Dravania is Zanarkand (right down to the ruins of an ancient civilization). Nidhogg is Sin (previously not interested in complete destruction, just exacting punishment in a 1,000 year cycle). The Church of Halone share some similarities with the Teachings of Yevon. We're the whiny superstar that comes into town and starts questioning this absurd state of affairs, while complaining about our absent father friends.

Key difference when taking that to Hydaelyn and Zodiark is that there isn't a solid Teachings of Yevon in place. Hydaelyn doesn't have us abide a strict teachings that facilitate the cycle of Umbral and Astral. Instead we have the Ascians facilitating that cycle and keeping us ignorant, although we could bring Sharlayan into this. There's no solid Sin analogy, but we have Calamities and Primals, caused by Ascians. This is why I said they're sort of an amalgamation of FFXs various plot points (this whole story is sort of an amalgamation of FF plot points...). It's not a perfect comparison, but the similarities are there. We've got an undying organization that keeps man in the dark about everything, so they can better be used to facilitate the cycle (Sin and the Calm, Umbral and Astral Eras). Remember how the whole point of Yunas journey was for her to obtain the Final Summon and sacrifice it and herself to stop Sin? Well, the whole point of our 1-50 journey was to build the Blessing of Light, so Lahabrea could bring down the Hammer of Darkness upon Hydaelyn. He facilitated our journey in the beginning, while still remaining antagonistic of course, but there is a clear change in his behavior towards us before and after Hydaelyn spent Her power shielding us from Ultima. It was a JustAsPlanned.jpg moment, obtaining the Blessing and fighting Gaius was his plan, and after that he had no more use for us, so he attempts to kill us. We were a force for good that was ultimately playing into the hands of evil, we played into Lahabreas hand the same way Summoners and their Final Summon played into Yu Yevons.

Except we weren't the Final Summon. The analogy isn't perfect, because FFXIV is not a carbon copy of FFX. We essentially beat Sin our own way, but Sin keeps coming back. We stopped Nabriales. We stopped Lahabrea. We don't need to find out the truth to go "Oh, so they Ascians were kinda right!", we need to find out the truth so we can find a better solution than just curb stomping them when they show up... Not curb stomping them when they show up isn't really an option, because (with the sole exception of Elidibus) when they show up it's to ruin peoples day... When an Ascian shows up in La Noscea, has the the Sahagin summon Leviathan (Savage), we're not going to sit there and go "I'm sure they've got their reasons, lets figure that out instead", we're going to stop what is essentially a plot to destroy Limsa Lominsa. That's not to say we shouldn't figure out their reasoning, just that their reasoning isn't going to stop us from protecting Limsa. If the big bad truth was something that convincing, they wouldn't be hiding it. Elidibus is still hiding it...

much as I disagree with your notion that we don't need to learn the whole truth

Sigh... This is getting worse than;

>>Nidhogg might have told Garlemald about Thordan to ensure a new conflict.
<<Why would Nidhogg ally with Garlemald?
>>How is that allying?

I really don't get how I can be any clearer at this point... I think I'm just going to stop... There's a difference between talking and allying... There's a difference between not needing/wanting/caring to know, and knowing not mattering... I have clarified this plenty of times and I am getting absolutely sick of it...

I... don't really trust the lyrics to Sephirot's theme to provide exposition.

It's not just Fiend that provides this... Answers and Dragonsong (both sung by Hydaelyn) do a fairly good job of it too, as I pointed out earlier (either in this thread or another). We've basically been told Dragonsong refers to past and coming events, like I pointed out, the trailer shows Minfilia along with the line "Sacrifice, a final plea to her kin". Not very subtle, I saw Minfilia being sacrificed coming because of that alone, though I'd rather the plot have taken her somewhere else... Still, Minfilia was sacrificed, Word of the Mother gave us her final plea... Go check the next lines in the song...

Well, that said, eliminating death would eliminate life as well. Certainly a good reason to go against Zodiark.

While we certainly don't know it's the truth, I'm leaning towards it being that... Elidibus claimed that if we were to master the Echo, we'd be of one mind... The Sahagin Elder, while perhaps not a master of the Echo, did display an as yet unknown property of it; Immortality. This is why I think Derplander is walking a different path; He has the Echo. He can be an immortal. If life is "undone", I suspect Echo users would be unaffected. If we were to master the Echo, there would be no conflict with the Ascians because we'd see the world as they see it; Flawed. We'd be immortal, we'd watch everyone die and fight over silly things... Then we'd come to their way of thinking...

Instead, we're going to FFVI this sh*t.

I really don't see anything that could suggest that the Ascians are doing the wrong things for the right reasons... Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's going to feel incredibly forced if it is the case... Worse than Bravely Default, even... That at least had foreshadowing, it hammered the point home for far too long, and just left me asking "Are these characters retarded?", but it had foreshadowing. I hope we don't have some convenient truth that Elidibus could have just shared with us in 2.1 but didn't, because plot? It seems we've got a truth that we have to experience for ourselves (Hear, Feel, Think...) to understand, and that has me leaning heavily towards a FFVI conclusion.

[Fenral]

The one thing keeping us from FFVI-ing this whole mess is that most of our allies are stuck in the death-crazed FFII mindset, trying to find their way to die beautifully for the cause, as all must. Alphinaud has realized this, but Minfilia only made things worse on that front by sacrificing herself. We won't be going FFVI on anyone until we resolve to fight for our own lives as well as those of the world.

[Nalien]

Which perhaps is the entire point Nidhogg came back?

Alphinaud has resolved to save Estinien, rather than sacrifice him. He has to convince the Scions of that goal. He'll have to change their mindset to achieve that. No more stupid sacrifices, thanks for that lesson, Nidhogg.

Gears of Changeeeeeee.

[Fenral]

We agree on something!

Honestly, my more conservative theory is that Hydaelyn created mortals, sure, because of the beauty of what we could achieve with our finite lifespans (see FFIII's Noah). Over the ages, though, we've gotten too attached to the idea of death (kind of like Xande's FFIII incarnation), so where we're supposed to be fighting on for our own lives, we've instead fallen into the nihilistic slump of thinking that our death is the only thing that will have meaning, because our lives are so short. A lot of what I said before on death and sacrifice lines up with this interpretation of Hydaelyn as well, with the difference being that maybe it's not a form of behavior she intended to encourage. We could just as easily be making mommy sad by fighting like our lives don't matter.

[Nalien]

Yep.

Again, Dragonsong is sung by Hydaeyln and has multiple meanings;

Children of the land, answer this
Why must you turn to empty bliss
Tell me why break trust, why turn the past to dust
Seeking solace in the abyss
Tell me why create, a circle none can break
Why must you let go, the life you were bestowed
This I fear I'll never know
Never know

I take at least three things away from this. It relates to Ishgards conflict, potentially Lahabrea/Elidibus/Derplander, and of course, everyone willing to quickly throw away their lives. There's plenty of overlap of course, Ishgards culture was somewhat heavily based on fighting and dying honorably. Kind of a prime example of this nihilistic behavior.

As far as the "of this world" Ascians go, they've sought solace in the abyss and let go of their lives in the process, at least that's what I'd speculate.

As for Minfilia;

One soul's cry
A passion dwelling within
Sacrifice, a final plea to her kin
Yet this bond of hope, by treachery was broke
Scattering her words to the wind

In the trailer, we see Minifila for this line. Obviously we have the historical interpretation (Shiva sacrificing herself, bringing man and dragon together, only for Throdan to break that bond of hope, arguably also some parallels with 2.55s events), but when considering a meaning for it going forward? The subtlety (or lack of) of showing Minfilia at that point is not lost on me. Minfilia has now been sacrificed. Hydaelyn gave us a final plea... I'm very interested in seeing how the next two lines manifest going forward... I see a few candidates;

Thancred - Obviously not taking this sacrifice well, tailing Derplander... Though I would hope he is smarter than that, given what he has been through with Lahabrea... Yes he knows how crappy being made a puppet is, but at the same time he has no reason to trust Ascians.
Urianger - Fairly obvious, given his interactions with Elidibus. Very doubtful Urianger will do anything though, he is getting information from "the enemy", not siding with them.
Krile - Do we really know Hydaelyn saved Krile? IDK, I was a bit suspicious of her in 3.1, and as a walking FFV reference, I keep expecting her to copy Lenna in surviving the void...
Alphinaud - Anti-sacrifice, has us saving Estinien rather than seeking... seek... Not exactly an "evil", or even an intentional betrayal... Not really one at all actually, just a noble distraction. Not like we know what to seek anyway...
Derplander - If he is the same hero from 1.0, then his "treachery" has already occurred, he just needs to talk to us next time, rather than attack us. In the same sense we could consider Elidibus, given he is "of this world".
Midgardsormr - Because in a conflict between Light and Dark, he appears to be a neutral third party, albeit one that appears to have sided with Light. I'm still not over "Herpderp, let me crash this ship into my lake!"...

I'd lean towards Derplander/Elidibus personally. That's not to say their treachery is uncalled for, or that defusing the Words... words... is a "bad" thing for us overall. Just that from Hydaelyns perspective, it would be.

[Fenral]

I take at least three things away from this. It relates to Ishgards conflict, potentially Lahabrea/Elidibus/Derplander, and of course, everyone willing to quickly throw away their lives. There's plenty of overlap of course, Ishgards culture was somewhat heavily based on fighting and dying honorably. Kind of a prime example of this nihilistic behavior.

Considering how much "death for the cause is beautiful" was going on between 2.5 and 3.2, I'll admit I hadn't read that particular interpretation of those lyrics. I read "empty bliss" (bliss that is empty) instead of "empty bliss" (the specific bliss of emptiness), and that colored the rest that followed into, "why try to live a happy (empty) life when real happiness is sacrificing yourself for the cause?" Though it could easily have been written that way on purpose, to change meanings once we got more out of some combination of Heidi, Middy, and Eldibby.

[Cilia]

Mmmmm... I'm not blind to the parallels between some current events and Dragonsong, but I'm not going to take it as a prophecy just yet.

I don't recall them every saying it foreshadowed future events, just that it had multiple interpretations and meanings.

[CyrilLucifer]

While we certainly don't know it's the truth, I'm leaning towards it being that... Elidibus claimed that if we were to master the Echo, we'd be of one mind... The Sahagin Elder, while perhaps not a master of the Echo, did display an as yet unknown property of it; Immortality. This is why I think Derplander is walking a different path; He has the Echo. He can be an immortal. If life is "undone", I suspect Echo users would be unaffected. If we were to master the Echo, there would be no conflict with the Ascians because we'd see the world as they see it; Flawed. We'd be immortal, we'd watch everyone die and fight over silly things... Then we'd come to their way of thinking...

I see this as a possibility and have been pondering something similar myself, but in the end I'm not sure if I agree with it. The Lesser Ascians know they are not truly immortal. They are fully aware that their host body dying without another corpse nearby means they're toast (my bets are on this happening to Cutest Ascian, but I digress). Now, Lahabrea's Lessers are a bit odd and seem devoted to Lahabrea rather than Zodiark, so I'm not sure how that all works out, but the fact remains that not all Ascians are under the belief they are functionally immortal.

Edit: Plus, that leads the the question then, if the Ascians want to erase all life why would the Lesser Ascians be fighting for Zodiark in the first place? They wouldn't be able to continue existing, either, they need mortal bodies. It seems like a bad deal for them to go from immortal to nothing. Why not just abandon? I've played with the idea that the Lessers might not be entirely willing servants, hence their devotion to their Overlord master, but I really don't have evidence of it.

And, now that Elidibus knows that he can be killed, he would also be aware that he is not above death. That would, theoretically, shatter his entire worldview, much like Kuja in IX, since you're fond of the references. We're not seeing that, Lahabrea and Elidibus actually both seemed to take Nabriales being permanently killed rather well, in my opinion.

[Nalien]

Nabriales dying can easily be viewed as a result of the current state of the world, as it were. They're not above death here, because death exists here. As for the lesser Ascians, remember what Elidibus said when we first met him. The Echo (and the immortality it grants) isn't a simple case of "Welp, now I'm immortal!", he specifically mentions that if we master the Echo, we'll see things his way. Lesser Ascians, then, are either simple thralls or in the process of mastering their powers. Prior to Nabriales biting the big one, they simply assumed complete mastery = untouchable. Although the existence of Dark Crystals as an Escape Rope to get them away from danger has always had me questioning whether they were truly immortal; One doesn't have a card like that up their sleeve if they're not afraid of something like death...