Why so salty?

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Really, most of the people that are salty are either DPS that fail at dpsing or bad healers that ride that Cleric Stance button too hard and whine when DPS die to unavoidable damage. Just laugh it off. :3

[TouchandFeel]

IMO, the tank dps nerf was less about "tanks do as much damage as dps" and was most likely more about trying to force a paradigm shift in both the tank meta and the way the roles interact in a party/raid environment.

While a good tank could do approximately as good damage as a not so good dps, skilled dps easily did a good amount more damage than a skilled tank. Whether the difference was enough is somewhat debateable. However, this does lead to the controversial topic of how many dps (not all of course) have been playing suboptimally and have been able to get carried through content by the other roles. This is the "way roles interact" part that I was getting at, that by lessening tank damage it puts more responsibility on dps to perform to compensate for that loss.

Now for the "tank meta" I am talking about the highly aggressive, "STR tank", dps stance tanking meta that has been a thing in this game for a while now. This meta is both good and bad as it is good for those that know what they are doing but bad for those that don't and unfortunately it created a situation in which a lot of inexperienced tanks or not very good tanks would try to follow the meta and perform poorly as a tank because they never learned or were able to handle the "tanking" part. I have a feeling SqEnix was not so hot on what the current meta had lead to and so wanted to shift it back to a bit more of a defensive focus for the role, therefore putting a greater emphasis on learning and putting into action on a regular basis, the basics of tanking in this game.

So in conclusion I feel that in order to force more responsibility of group dps back onto the shoulders of the dps role as well as to force more tanks to know how to tank, SqEnix decided they needed to be a bit heavy handed and implemented the overall tank dps nerf. It is of course by no means the end of the world and dedicated tank players will continue to play it because they love the role, but yeah nobody likes getting nerfed even if the reasons behind it were potentially sound.

As for people not being rude and childish in their responses, I agree and people really need to start putting the "common" back in " common courtesy" because these days it seems like people are considerably more ready to spit poison and fling feces at each other than have any civil discourse.

P.S. I do feel the nerf amount was a bit much as it is right now, but I am curious as to how it will scale with the equipment since VIT based gear tends to give a bit more VIT than STR gear gave STR. Will the greater VIT per gear piece end up adding up enough that the current nerf gets noticeably lessened? Who knows and it may be hard to tell now or even in the future but it is something that may warrant consideration.

[Dualgunner]

People post about their concern, and upsetness, that a job, in this case War, Drk, or Pld, is doing less damage due to the patch and most people fire back with comments akin to, "Boo hoo. Grow up. You were never meant to do damage. Shut up and tank. Suck it up and put your big boy pants on. Etc. Etc."

Anyway, the point of my post is to kindly ask all of you to not be so rude, negative, and/or hateful to one another regardless of what a thread is about and to, "Be excellent to each other."

You're at most 10 years old aren't you MugenMugetsu?

These are the kinds of people this thread is talking about. The vitriolic people who feel like now that a viable playstyle got nerfed to hell, they can now run around making fun of them and screaming 'We were right all along! See? SE agrees!' This thread is not meant to argue about whether or not the nerf was needed/wanted by the community, it was about how, and I noticed this too, as salty as the actual tanks are, all the healers and dps and VIT tanks commenting seem to be even saltier towards people who just had their way of playing crushed. Moreover it's a plea to remind everyone that we're all on the same side, and to try to keep insults to a minimum and regard others' feelings for their playstyles.

[MyrahiRounfa]

These are the kinds of people this thread is talking about. The vitriolic people who feel like now that a viable playstyle got nerfed to hell, they can now run around making fun of them and screaming 'We were right all along! See? SE agrees!' This thread is not meant to argue about whether or not the nerf was needed/wanted by the community, it was about how, and I noticed this too, as salty as the actual tanks are, all the healers and dps and VIT tanks commenting seem to be even saltier towards people who just had their way of playing crushed. Moreover it's a plea to remind everyone that we're all on the same side, and to try to keep insults to a minimum and regard others' feelings for their playstyles.

I really don't feel sorry for anyone complaining about this nerf, I've been tanking in MMORPG's since Ultima Online.

[Dualgunner]

I really don't feel sorry for anyone complaining about this nerf, I've been tanking in MMORPG's since Ultima Online.

And it's your right not to; but do realize, at the very least, that the people complaining were people who genuinely had fun playing their classes the way they did, and not put them down for no longer being able to play that way any longer.

[tjw]

And it's your right not to; but do realize, at the very least, that the people complaining were people who genuinely had fun playing their classes the way they did, and not put them down for no longer being able to play that way any longer.

Not saying that you're one of them, but your attitude is just a hair's width away from those who have the infamous "I play how I want!" attitude when it comes to duties. If I had a tank that 'had fun' only in DPS stance, even if he was losing hate...should I not say something? I have more fun in Cleric Stance blasting enemies away with Holy. Does that mean I shouldn't be focusing on my main role as healer? Healers have felt the brunt of being unable to DPS properly since a long time ago (PvP Cleric Stance nerf) and more recently as well (all accuracy gone on HW gear). So yes, if you are playing your role for fun, but not for the comfort of everyone, then yes, I will be saying negative things.

[Dualgunner]

snip

I agree with you; the OP made offhand remarks above and beyond what my interpretation of the thread is meant to be. I also do understand the tank nerfs, and I can agree with them over time; like I will say, though, in my response to TJW, is that my opinion regarding tank balance is moot, as I do not main a tank.

I am all for argumentation; that is, discussion meant to bring greater understanding to all parties involved, and/or sway the opinion of spectators and/or participants to one paradigm or another. However, comments along the lines of 'Is OP a 10 year old?' serve only as argumentative fallacy and do not achieve the goal of argumentation.

-snip-

I will agree with you on the point that if your fun is to the detriment of the group, then your fun is not worth it. I dislike Ice Mages and I groan every time I see a dungeon go by with a dragoon never touching Heavy Thrust like it's hidden behind some kind of forbidden lock. With that said, in my experience the majority of Strength Tanks did not detract, but rather, added to a dungeon; that is, however, anecdotal at best and I only submit that to submit that I may have some bias in this discussion.

Not maining a Tank class, myself, my opinion on the tank nerfs is moot; I lack the knowledge to craft educated premises for argument, and the passion to put a defense up either way. I just wish for all the hatred I've seen both sides spew at each other to stop, or at least lessen; I know these forums are harsh at times, but they seem to get a few orders of magnitude worse whenever DPS (of any variety: DPS's dps (referring to Ice Mages and their defenders) Tank's DPS (current discussion) and Healer DPS (Healers should only heal!)) is brought up.

[Welsper59]

These are the kinds of people this thread is talking about. The vitriolic people who feel like now that a viable playstyle got nerfed to hell, they can now run around making fun of them and screaming 'We were right all along! See? SE agrees!' This thread is not meant to argue about whether or not the nerf was needed/wanted by the community, it was about how, and I noticed this too, as salty as the actual tanks are, all the healers and dps and VIT tanks commenting seem to be even saltier towards people who just had their way of playing crushed. Moreover it's a plea to remind everyone that we're all on the same side, and to try to keep insults to a minimum and regard others' feelings for their playstyles.

One thing that practically everyone on both sides of the argument overlooks is whether or not opinions and perspectives are objectively right, wrong, or misguided though. One can easily have perspectives about something that is objectively wrong or misguided, despite it being a personal thing. Take the recent stupidity about the Earth being flat. Objectively wrong and can easily lead to many misguided brandings upon others. Even moreso when it comes to health and vaccinations. While these are real world issues, it does still transition mentally into how some things in a game are. Most people don't read everything that is being said, and will respond based on previous experience or perception. To them, OP was all about the "QQ SE SUX" saying. There are some things of note though that's being said by the OP that stands out as "you're not really understanding what's going on here", which adds fuel to the fire.

Why it's so taboo for a tank who wields a great axe, great sword, or a sword to put out good dps numbers is beyond me. I fail to understand why everyone, well not everyone, but I fail to understand why so many of you are against tanks doing good DPS. Especially because this is just a game, and we're all here to have fun.

That, for example, is one of those things. It screams ignorance, as it leaves so many possible counterpoints. Why does there need to be a distinguishable line between the roles? Because of the same reason why we can't heal like healers, tank like tanks, and do damage like DPS at the same time as one job or role. It's why we can't have an optional I.W.I.N. button. Generally speaking, none of us are a one-man army for all forms of content. Roles are there to promote team play and coordination. When one starts to cross over into another role, it opens Pandora's Box. You don't feel the effects of it right away, but balance becomes a problem for not just the players, but for the developers as well. What if they decided to buff something like Fell Cleave by 50% instead? All in the name of fun, but why would that be remotely ridiculous when it's all about the fun? DPS still bring unique traits and buffs to a group, so it's not like they'd be outright useless. Even in PvP, it was already plausible to be 1-shot by it, so it's not like amplifying it would make a difference. See where I'm going here? Arguments are fine, but there are VERY important things to note about each parties perspectives to determine if the argument itself is sound.

[Lone-wolfe-02]

Well yeah you should grow up, it's not even a big nerf.

[Harz]

My ultimate problem is that it's solved nothing, bis tank gear is still going to be a mix of str and vit accessories because they're equally weighted and vit accessories are overly saturated with parry and accuracy. One of which is a dead stat and the other is a dead stat past a certain point.

The gap between tanks and DPS in damage numbers was smaller than ever in Heavensward. Tanks shouldn't be encroaching on the territory of real DPS simply because tank rotations are incredibly simple compared to real DPS, and the latter should be rewarded for actually learning these often very complex rotation.

The only DPS they were even close to 'encroaching on' were BRD and MCH, and that's not really a fair comparison because both offer substantial increases to raid wide dps that none of the tanks can even come close to matching.