Are there more tanks playing now?

[Laerune]

I did level my tanking classes in ARR, but never tanked alot with those classes, with HW I have been tanking with my Warrior and Dark Knight alot and I am enjoying it. I reckon the expansion probaly got some players to try out tanking and some stick it and others dismiss it.

To your questions: Are there more tanks playing now? I think there are more tanks playing right now, but the numbers are still lower compared to healers and dps players that the increase will not make much of a difference.

[Instrumentality]

Objectively speaking, this is only true when you have self healing tied to dps, or are dying to an enrage or DPS oriented mechanic, like Titan 's heart phase. Pushing phases faster is not mitigating any damage whatsoever, as you're still getting hit just as hard.

Objectively speaking a boss that is dead does zero damage to the tank.

[Merkava]

It's not a case of "why not", it's a case of "describe the basics of the job", and maximizing DPS is not part of the basics of tanking.

...what? DPSing is indeed not part of the "basics of tanking" but it's still something tanks should care about. It matters when you're trying to steps things up from every other average tank. Just because it's not part of the "basics" doesn't mean it's either bad nor something that should be ignored.

I'm really hating this sentence more and more...because it's abysmal uneducated.

... You completely went over the entire point didn't you? What is it about your statement contradicts what I said? Allow me to repeat in case you are unable to properly read said "uneducated" statement.

Good DPS and tanking are not mutually exclusive actions. If a tank knows the fight well, how to properly manage cooldowns and how to keep control of said encounter then he/she should always aim to contribute as much DPS as possible to the raid without sacrificing their main functions as a tank. This is what differentiates an exceptional tank from a mediocre one.

For example, if you play a PLD and you have a heavy AoE setup, then STR does nothing for you,

First of all, you do know that there was a patch recently that changed the whole AP formula for tanks, right? No tank is going to take STR anymore, regardless of the situation so presenting this argument as if it was 3.0 or 3.1 is simply a giant waste of time. Tanks will take VIT at this point because it's simply superior to STR, period.

you'll want to take as many mobs as possible, probably spam Flash more than damage skills (Which will give you far enough enmity even on VIT build)

Why would you “spam flash”? You just need to flash in order to establish enmity. If you already have a significant enmity lead over everyone else why would you keep spamming a 0 damage skill that also burns up valuable MP? That's a complete waste of time. You either have a comfortable lead on enmity or you don't. Generating a gazillion enmity ahead of everyone else does nothing for you. If you already have a firm hold on enmity you should not be spamming flash, instead damage skills seem like a better use of your time. If you are learning a fight then this is ok but you eventually have to move past this point.

and offer a big HP pool so that your WHM will have more time spamming Holy in cleric stance before your HP drop to dangerous levels.

You know what else gives your WHM more time to spam holy? Good Cooldown usage, even with the extra HP a good tank will always strive to use cooldowns properly. This is by far, way more important than MOAR HP. Good healers want stuff to die fast more than anything else.

People simply switched to STR in HW because of how the fights where designed and how HP bloats did little to help with actual damage mitigation (Healers in this game being extremely powerful, you either survive or you don't). Good tanks will switch around as the fights demand it, it's all about adapting and optimizing, exceptional vs mediocre. It's kinda like how WAR works during progression, as they learn the fight they are more likely to use Storm's Path frequently in their rotation but as the group becomes more and more comfortable with the fight many of them often stop using it altogether in favor of more raw DPS.

It's not even about STR vs VIT because that whole argument is (was), quite frankly, simply utterly pointless and ridiculous; heck, VIT vs STR doesn't even matter anymore as STR is now a bad idea to have. It's simply about either mediocre tanks making up excuses or people just complaining about how the game "should play".

On the flip side there where indeed issues with Raid designs in Goardias as the tight DPS checks pretty much made Paladin Unviable during progression. This was a horrible design choice and SE should never repeat this ever again but this is an entirely separate argument.

[Reynhart]

... You completely went over the entire point didn't you?

No, in fact, I think you went over the entire discussion.
Let me remind you where it started :

1) Obtain aggro quickly. Retain it. Transfer it smoothly when required.
2) Control the rate of incoming damage through gear and defensive abilities.
3) Position mobs quickly and smoothly. Minimize movement.
4) Maximize your damage output.

"maximizing your damage output" is not a core part of the job.

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First of all, you do know that there was a patch recently that changed the whole AP formula for tanks, right?

Maybe that's why I talked about the past STR debate...maybe, since MOAAAAR DEEPS came from here.

Good DPS and tanking are not mutually exclusive actions.

Yes, they're not. But one also doesn't imply the other. Since, in 3.0, most people could sum up "being good" as "wearing STR acc", because "if you don't, then you're not doing as much damage as you can", you could say that "not playing WAR" is automatically being a bad tank since you could do more damage as a WAR.

And this "WAR only" mentality will probably outlive the STR debate...heck, with the recent PLD buffs, you already see "DRK is dead" threads...

[Merkava]

Maybe that's why I talked about the past STR debate...maybe, since MOAAAAR DEEPS came from here.

Because at that point in time it was just simply what was best. Vit had no place over STR when nothing hit hard enough to require THAT much HP. Tank DPS was (and still is) far more reliable than healers so it's far more desirable in just about every situation. Since healers are powerful in this game tanks had no reason to bloat more HP when they where well above the required HP treshold of whatever attack that was coming their way. STR simply trounced VIT in every shape or form, unless the extra HP was required to survive whatever tank buster was coming your way.

Effective tanking was, and still, is about effective cooldown and mechanics management. It still and will probably never be about HP bloat, unless the tank buster requires it.

Yes, they're not. But one also doesn't imply the other. Since, in 3.0, most people could sum up "being good" as "wearing STR acc", because "if you don't, then you're not doing as much damage as you can", you could say that "not playing WAR" is automatically being a bad tank since you could do more damage as a WAR.

The problem with the 3.0 "meta" wasn't the STR vs VIT debate, it was simply how Gordias was designed at that point. With tight DPS checks and somewhat gentle tank busters everyone was encouraged to do as much DPS as possible in order to have a realistic chance of not hitting some enrage timer or whanot. "MOAAAR DEEPS" came because of Goardias and how very little things in the game actually required high HP levels in order to be survivable. This was a design problem first and foremost. Sadly we all know how high end Meta gameplay tends to have a domino effect, whatever is best for the highest end raid is often considered what's best for everything else.

And frankly, during my entire 3.0 run, I never once saw a VIT tank that was exception in any shape or form. I will admit that I was the type that when I saw pure VIT i assumed either new player or average player (at best), I was never wrong. All they ever did was stay in their respective tank stances and just kept hate, that's it. Never doing good damage nor using cooldowns effectively for that matter. It just made average tanks easier to manage in PF. But it is true that a mediocre STR tank was a pain to deal with but this was a problem with the tank and not with the Meta. STR just did everything VIT did but better, it just required the tank to not suck in order to use effectively (it definetly had a higher skill floor).

And this "WAR only" mentality will probably outlive the STR debate...heck, with the recent PLD buffs, you already see "DRK is dead" threads...

Nobody likes seeing their favorite class suck, as a WAR I would never want to see either DRK nor PLD deal with what PLD had to during 3.0 and 3.1. Games like this will always have debates like this but it's really up to SE to prevent screw Gordias level screw ups. Look at Thordan, for example, PLDs where highly desired in that fight. If they better designed Gordias then most of this wouldn't have happened as the STR vs VIT debate raged even before 3.0 hit.

Sadly, due to how certain things have been balanced, WAR is probably still the best tank in the game (perhaps the best class overall) and this isn't good and should be fixed. Namely since WAR is the only tank class that does not sacrifice DPS for hate. Having one class dominate is never good for anyone.

[Zadocfish]

Why would you “spam flash”? You just need to flash in order to establish enmity. If you already have a significant enmity lead over everyone else why would you keep spamming a 0 damage skill that also burns up valuable MP? That's a complete waste of time. You either have a comfortable lead on enmity or you don't. Generating a gazillion enmity ahead of everyone else does nothing for you.

Remember, PLDs have exactly ONE native AOE damage attack, it has a 25s cd, and they have very few abilities that use MP. Clemency is useful, but not as much as the ability to gain enmity quickly. And for big pulls, keeping enmity on all foes when your team decides to target different enemies, or DPS uses AOE skills, is aided A LOT by establishing an AOE enmity lead. Basically, Flash spamming has its uses, and shouldn't be overlooked. PLD doesn't have much AOE.

Course, I'm still low leveled, so this is just what I've noticed. Early game, Flash is a skill that you will be using a lot.

[Merkava]

Remember, PLDs have exactly ONE native AOE damage attack, it has a 25s cd, and they have very few abilities that use MP. Clemency is useful, but not as much as the ability to gain enmity quickly. And for big pulls, keeping enmity on all foes when your team decides to target different enemies, or DPS uses AOE skills, is aided A LOT by establishing an AOE enmity lead. Basically, Flash spamming has its uses, and shouldn't be overlooked. PLD doesn't have much AOE.

Oh definitely, Flash is a great skill for PLD (namely since it is the only AOE skill they have for a long time). They should definitely use it, the thing I wanted to stress is when you go overboard with "flash spam". There is a thing as enmity bloat, you don't want to generate an excess of it if it means burning your resources and sacrificing too much of your DPS. Flash should be used first and foremost as a tool to establish enmity. You do not need it for anything else. Once you have a good lead on the DPS (or healer) then there is very little reason to keep using it. spreading dps around is, by far, a much better use of your time (like spreading around Goring Blade). Clemency is indeed a situational skill but you do need more MP in order to use flash further down the line or even stance dance if you are feeling like pushing it.

Granted tho, it is ultimately true that PLD is just gimped in the AOE debate.

[FallenHero]

Why would a TANK cry about a 10-20% DPS loss? That was never your role and if you are good you can still do a lot of DPS, just not as much before. If an extra 100-200 DPS is such a big deal then go play a DPS class. (You never did that much pre 3.0 anyways)

As for aggro issues, I have none so Im not sure where thats coming from, your tank stance exists for a reason.

Tanks and Healers will always be the least played roles, their queues are still relatively instant besides the 24 mans since the party composition is so skewed towards having more DPS.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Why would a TANK cry about a 10-20% DPS loss? That was never your role and if you are good you can still do a lot of DPS, just not as much before. If an extra 100-200 DPS is such a big deal then go play a DPS class. (You never did that much pre 3.0 anyways)

As for aggro issues, I have none so Im not sure where thats coming from, your tank stance exists for a reason.

Tanks and Healers will always be the least played roles, their queues are still relatively instant besides the 24 mans since the party composition is so skewed towards having more DPS.

Because aggro is some times hard to control; the nerf was unjustified because DPS do significantly more damage, it was bad DPS who did crap damage and complained.

It also kind of fits the role for Warrior; and Dark Knight is in a pretty sad state atm now.

[FallenHero]

I have had zero problem controlling aggro so I really dont see that at all, and tank classes arent supposed to DPS as much as a DPS class, I wouldnt call it unjustified, just bringing them back in line with how they should be. People will complain about any slight nerf to their class though even if it barely affects the group in the long run.

A Warrior's role as OT has literally not changed at all, they are just doing 1150 DPS instead of 1300, and they still bring good raid utility with eye/storm

How is Dark Knight in a bad place? They still do 100 DPS more than PLD and are the preferred Tank for Savage raids that have high magic outgoing damage and tight DPS checks.

DRK was used in the A8S world first clear but people on the forums think they are in a bad place because PLD got a DPS buff? yeah okay.

I have all 3 tanks at i223 and swap them out for whatever the fight entails, the only time I ever use PLD is if its a heavy physical fight.

This is nothing but knee jerks reactions and complaints over something that isnt a big deal at all.