If You Were A Class/Job Designer...

[JackFross]

Why would you loose aggro to WAR on Delieverence, until you are one of those paladins "sorry, forgot shield oath"? And until OT makes a "good job" of OTing in defiance, which is stupid, especially that WAR's enmity stance does not eat up 15% of your max MP and is oGCD.

Because I'm not some scared tank who tanks Midas Normal in Shield Oath/Grit 100% of the time? There's literally no reason to use Shield Oath for Blaster or Swindler, even as MT. There's no reason to use Shield Oath during the tiny-gob phases on Ratfinx. There's no reason to be in Shield Oath in Quickthinx unless you're solo-tanking. Even then, only for Uplander Doom (the ones you don't HG the stacks away for). And there's no reason to ever turn Shield Oath on in A8, except to grab snap aggro during phase 2 and the start of final phase.

This, of course, is ignoring the fact that (in general) I pull in Shield Oath and follow:
FB>SB>RoH>FB>RB>SwO>FoF>GB
for every single one of the listed fights, save Ratfinx. I'll also pull in SwO on Quickthinx, ideally, but I need my NIN friend with Shadewalker to do so safely.

Tanking in Sword Oath with a WAR who doesn't manage their enmity in Deliverance makes it /very easy/ to lose hate.


Or am I just supposed to turtle and be a ShO tank because ShO is the tank stance? I tend to like to push my 1k dps on the A6 bosses, even while being MT. I use RoH while in SwO to maintain hate. A Warrior in Deliverance with Berserk up spamming BB will tear that boss right off of me, and there's nothing I can do about it. All I'm saying is that, if this happens, I just let the WAR tank. Manage your aggro or be the MT - that's all there is to it. It's 40 potency to just use a Storm's Path instead of Butcher's Block and not pull hate if you're close. It's a 90 potency drop for me to RoH instead of RA. I'm likely beating the WAR /anyway/ if this is DF, so I can't be arsed to let them be shit.

[Yuni_Queen]

Because I'm not some scared tank who tanks Midas Normal in Shield Oath/Grit 100% of the time?

Me too and yet i never lost aggro, becuase warrior was trying to make biggest dps possible for him. Maybe you should reconsider using different combo rotation?

Changing from BB to SE combo to do not steal aggro is one thing. Loosing aggro, despite the fact, you claim you ain't scared tank is another.

[DWolfwood]

snip

WARs are gonna open 3x Fell Cleave if they can. Maybe you shouldn't be trying to force yourself as MT.

You probably won't be MT for Blaster in Savage anyways.

[JackFross]

Me too and yet i never lost aggro, becuase warrior was trying to make biggest dps possible for him. Maybe you should reconsider using different combo rotation?

Changing from BB to SE combo to do not steal aggro is one thing. Loosing aggro, despite the fact, you claim you ain't scared tank is another.

When I open with RoH in Shield Oath, turn Sword Oath on after Riot Blade and follow it up with 3 RoH and 2 GB under FoF in Sword Oath and the WAR or WHM still manages to pull off me by the end of it, while the DRG bursting 2400 is a solid amount behind without a NIN, it's not my rotation that's the problem.

WARs are gonna open 3x Fell Cleave if they can. Maybe you shouldn't be trying to force yourself as MT.

You probably won't be MT for Blaster in Savage anyways.

When the other tank turns off tank stance the second we get into the room, while I'm already in Sword Oath, it's pretty heavily implied that they're expecting me to pull and tank. If they can't throttle their hate generation in Berserk to not rip hate off me, they're either a bad WAR or a bad tank. When I spend my 3 non-dot combos in my initial FoF using RoH combos and still don't have solid hate against the OT or a healer, it's not me who's doing things wrong.

[Yuni_Queen]

When I open with RoH in Shield Oath, turn Sword Oath on after Riot Blade and follow it up with 3 RoH and 2 GB under FoF in Sword Oath and the WAR or WHM still manages to pull off me by the end of it, while the DRG bursting 2400 is a solid amount behind without a NIN, it's not my rotation that's the problem.

Your DPS party memebers + OT are doing mayhem with all they got and your opening contain ONE RoH under shield oath?

Party wipes, becuase players make mistakes, not becuase paladin didn't use Goring Blade in sword oath. Your savage 50 potency auto-attack enhancement is not worth loosing aggro.
Also, saying "Not my fault, not my problem" would result in instant kick from the party. There is no party or static, that want player selfish enough to do not be concerned about PARTY problems.

You, as MT, are loosing aggro. That's PARTY problem and YOUR fault.

[Shurrikhan]

Your DPS party memebers + OT are doing mayhem with all they got and your opening contain ONE RoH under shield oath?

Party wipes, becuase players make mistakes, not becuase paladin didn't use Goring Blade in sword oath. Your savage 50 potency auto-attack enhancement is not worth loosing aggro.
Also, saying "Not my fault, not my problem" would result in instant kick from the party. There is no party or static, that want player selfish enough to do not be concerned about PARTY problems.

You, as MT, are loosing aggro. That's PARTY problem and YOUR fault.

I believe the point of that example was that the "DRG bursting 2400" wasn't remotely a problem, yet the 1300 bursting Warrior using Butcher's Blocks was. At the cost of maybe some 30 dps by Storm's Path or a second Eye instead, the Warrior could allow the PLD an extra 150 by not competing in threat. Alternatively, if he wants to Butcher with a Sword Oath PLD MT, then it makes no difference apart from future CDs who's tanking at that time, as long as he moves into MT position, instead of aiming cleaves into the raid just to get his extra 20 potency. I'm not sure why you'd blame the PLD in this example for the party problems. The only competing threat in that example is the OT. And why should a tank have to pad his enmity just to deal with... another tank?

[Yuni_Queen]

I'm not sure why you'd blame the PLD in this example for the party problems.

I do not blame PLD for party problems, but i blame PLD for sitting in shield oath for 7,5 seconds and then complaining about loosing aggro. Kay, OT warrior should notice, he is about to steal aggro, and do not use BB;
But PLD after noticing, that 1300 bursting warrior is about to steal aggro, should eat his tears up and turn shield oath on, becuase chances that warrior will say "Oh, i shouldnt use bb, fuck my berzerk" are pretty low. And exchaning 20 potency powered up with 20% maim and 50% berzerk is probably same dmg as the difference between Shield Oathed Goring Blade vs Sword Oathed GB.

Until you want to spam RoH in sword oath to hold aggro, which is dps loss greater than this 15% penalty.

Rather than build up hate for 3 more comboses and then do turn on his sword oath, he complains about warriors using BB... That's what i blame him for.