Primal Summoning Question.

[Whiteroom]

Spoilers ahead: pretty old ones though.




Can there be multiple of the same Primal summoned at the same time?

I may be answering my own question, but it seems entirely likely that you could. All you would need to do is isolate two tribes that worship the same primal, and give them some crystals and a kick in the behind.

It seems to be that they would likely be slightly different given what we currently know about primal, that they would be affected by local lore, but essentially you could have two different Ifrits summoned at the same time.

Now this may not have much of a purpose in game, other than a Savage Primal EX type encounter, or maybe the Wandering Primals thing. But it could make for interesting story or lore. Like what would happen if the matching primals met, would they fight, would they work together, would they divide by 0?

Also, I posed this before in one of the Bahamut/Allagan threads. If the Allagans wanted to gain power from a primal, could they not just create multiple of an easy to contain and control primal, rather than create a moon for an extremely dangerous primal?

[Anonymoose]

If I'm remembering this accurately, we haven't seen anything 100% concrete yet. But it seems like once something answers the beacon (faith), that thing has answered the beacon (period, regardless of what form it took). You trap Bahamut in the wonderball, he's out of play. You trap Garuda in the Ultima Weapon, she's out of play. You trap the Warring Triad in Azys Lla, they're out of play. Theoretically.

Let's say, hypothetically, Belias and Ifrit were visualized virtually the same, but their legends were based on different things-that-were. Could you summon both and have them be the same thing? Perhaps! But if, hypothetically, the Amalj'aa had a schism 500 years ago and the two factions tried to summon radically different versions of the same Ifrit, I'm not as confident that it would work. What answered the beacon for Ifrit 5 years ago is theoretically the same, but the resulting entity had different attributes. Following that logic, both beacons of faith would call out to the same distributed essence, and (unless Shiva was both in Hraesvelgr and answered Ysale's beacon), we don't have any examples of an essence being in two forms at once.

But we're not 100% sure. After all, what's with the 100 Ifrits and Titans that came flying out of Silvertear Falls when Agrius went down?
Or did SE just copypaste for the CG Opening? /shrug

[Veritas-Ancora]

Oooooh, very interesting question. My nipples are hard.

(Spoilers)

If you take into account the story of Saint Shiva, the Iceheart Shiva is not the actual Shiva. So in theory, Iceheart's Shiva is only one Shiva. But what if the dragons interpreted Shiva a different way? Well, that'd create a different Shiva. None of these primals are established beings, they're the interpretation of the summoner. So in theory, two of the same primals could not be summoned at the same time. But an altered interpretation of that primal? Hmm, now we're getting metaphysical.

I'm a little torn on this, however. That basically means that absolutely anyone can summon anything at any given time with the help of the Ascians. Unless, of course, the Ascians are the ones who are dreaming up these primals because they know that they already exist in the aetherial realm.

I think the Ascians are behind these beings far more than we give them credit for...

[myahele]

I suppose it's possible. Wasn't said that pieces of a primals original being is spread throughout the Lifestream?

I'd say as long as the interpretation of __ primal is different, then it's possible to summon 2 of the same Primals ... kinda like FF 10's Aeons.

Ex: One version of Garuda is a sadistic fighter due to drinking the blood of the Serpent Lord, while the other Ixal can interpret her as a noble freedom fighter.

In the end, it's the belief of the follower's that shape the personality (maybe even appearance) of the summoned Primal. Afterall, Ysayle/heretic's Shiva is not a robed and calm woman.

To a lesser extent, Egis can still exist despite the Primal being around.

Though Anonymoose does have a good point: Once a Primal is captured (Dalamud, Ultima, Great Seal at the Lake) their essence is trapped, thus can no longer be summoned.

[Anonymoose]

To a lesser extent, Egis can still exist despite the Primal being around.

If I'm reading the information we have about Egi properly, we might be able to explain this particular concern.

When you create an Egi, you dilute your aether to do so. In fact, it's possible to divide your aether in a way that you lose your grip on yourself and die; dissolving back into the Lifestream. When a deiform dies, both the re-materialized essence and the aether acting as a catalyst for its form likewise dissolve back into the Lifestream. Now, think of your aether as being sort of like magnetic tape (a cassette). If I am interpreting the knowns properly, what happens is that the fading deiform's aether "taints" your own - effectively "recording" itself onto the "cassette". This attunes your aether to the defeated deiform. When you conjure an Egi, you create an arcane construct out of your own aether while tapping into that attunement; "playing back" the "recording" while visualizing the defeated deiform. For Ifrit, for example, this was made easier by tipping your aether's aspect towards a fire charge, facilitating the "playing back" of the essence of Inferno.

HOWEVER, none of this is a guarantee that the taint on your aether does not in fact itself contain a trace of the origin-essence that answered the beacon.
I can't prove that. So it's probably better to leave the door open a crack.

[Aedair_The_Righteous]

I'd say as long as the interpretation of __ primal is different, then it's possible to summon 2 of the same Primals ... kinda like FF 10's Aeons.

If I recall correctly, once an Aeon was summoned in FFX it could not be summoned again by another Summoner, even if it was of a different variant due to the Summoner's skill. If we applied FFX's summoning principle to FFXIV, then it would be impossible to summon two of the same primal.

[Cilia]

Simply put: no?

While theoretically it should be possible to summon multiple copies of the same primal, remember that they are all born from the same faith. As long as it's the same god (or phantom god) people are praying to, it will simply boost the power of the already-summoned Primal. That's what tempering is for. Now, going out on a limb, praying for different things from that god could color said god's psyche and change their behavior; I believe it was stated in the Live Letter expansion that the reason the primals are so hostile to us right now is because their worshipers are praying for salvation in a hostile and dark time (amalj'aa want Ifrit to help them conquer more land, kobolds want Titan to protect them, ixal want Garuda to destroy their enemies, etc.).

Since it's the exact same deity, probably not. But if you came up with a new one...

[liljramos88]

So if the summon have different form depending on who calls them forth. So can the egos also have different forms so if I summon ifrit and a fellow summoner summons a ifrit egi as well will they differ from each other. Is that why Tristan summoned belius?.

[Anonymoose]

if I summon ifrit and a fellow summoner summons a ifrit egi as well will they differ from each other. Is that why Tristan summoned belius?

A summoner can only summon the Egi of a primal that they have defeated in the past for two reasons, and it's the less-obvious one that matters here. First, of course, the summoner needs to have been bathed in the aetheric mist of the dying primal to attune their aether to it. Second, though, a little less metaphysical, the summoner shapes the arcane construct, and you cannot give it a form that you've never seen.

Now, the same tribe of Amalj'aa has been summoning all of the incarnations of Ifrit we've seen so far. Their mindset changed, and thus Ifrit's behavior changed, but he looks the same. Because of this, I think all Ifrit-Egi summoned by modern-day summoners would end up looking similar, as well. Tristan (and his brother) both fought Ifrit, and then an Ascian underling used the memories of summoners past (stored in the soulstones aka job crystals) to give Tristan knowledge of the elder primal Belias, enabling him to summon Belias-Egi.

Why does Belias-Egi look like Ifrit-Egi?

• Likely-Truth: Dev. Team couldn't commit resources to make another model

What options does the Lore Team have for explaining it?

• A: Belias actually did look like Ifrit. They are both avatars of Inferno, and Belias, a demon king, would look quite similar to Ifrit. Perhaps their histories are somehow entwined.

• B: Tristan had the knowledge of Belias, but had never seen him, so the memories from summoners past got enmeshed with Ifrit (a primal he had faced), due to their similar traits

• C: ??? (Other)