Please do something about Living Dead

[Eidolon]

So you think its ok that it potentially needs to blow Healer Cooldowns (Like benediction no less, so reasonable). You know how much Paladins need to get healed for? Yeah nothing. Wars? Whatever to survive and they can use it much more often. DRK? Doesn't get healed enough , oh you dead.

Yeah, "nothing wrong" such balance here.

You'll have to blow Healer Cooldown if either Warrior has to use Holmgang, or the Dark Knight has to use Living Dead. Both require a CD use because you're fighting one foot back otherwise - and that's no good for you.

Yes, Hallowed Ground is the epitome of an "oh shit" awesome button. However, Dark Knight - in my view - is substantially better off than a warrior is.


1) Longer duration, more time to react and fix the issue.
2) The only drawback is that you will "Die if you aren't healed", which if you're using this emergency CD, healers are likely pumping heals into you anyways.
3) it doesn't bind you in place, resulting in possibly being hit by random AoE. I've had to Holmgang so many times, resulting in living for the duration of it, only to have it wear off as an AoE lands on me and kills me instantly (because AoE's are so much more potent.)

Do I think Living Dead is perfect? No, but I think the Dark Knights clearly whining about it have never used a truly painful CD like holmgang.

[Pibz]

Snip.

IDK why i bother posting anything on this forums, torrents of white knights are the only people i get. WTV Sure it's fine, every DRK is wrong, it's not like i did the whole last tier progression with it nor like i did every single progression in this game before, so WTF do i know of this stuff right?

Calling Holmgang more painful.. i have no words for you

Just go look how often DRKs use Living Dead in all kinds of content vs Wars Holmgang and PLD Hallowed and then tell me how it's fine..

*Hiss* Hands off my HG! Drk is a dreamboat in aoe utility compared to Pld, at least let us keep what makes us special! ;^;

I don't want Hallowed/Holmgang nerfed nor do i want DRK to have hallowed i just want the usability of Living Dead to be improved that is all.

[Eidolon]

IDK why i bother posting anything on this forums, torrents of white knights are the only people i get. WTV Sure it's fine, every DRK is wrong, it's not like i did the whole last tier progression with it nor like i did every single progression in this game before, so WTF do i know of this stuff right?

Calling Holmgang more painful.. i have no words for you

Just go look how often DRKs use Living Dead in all kinds of content vs Wars Holmgang and PLD Hallowed and then tell me how it's fine..

You're right you have no words - because there's no reasonable alternative. But you know what? Unlike you, I'll back my words up with evidence.

Right now, at i199 Healer and i206 VIT-DRK. My i199 WHM can land a Cure II for 5,000 HP/cast. That's nearly 10 ilevels under the DRK, and my DRK Has 19,000 HP in his VIT-set. Not only that, he is STR spec, so when switched to VIT he will likely be closer to 20k.

That's 4 casts of a WHM cure II, without any use of CD usage, that will top off a DRK. That can be done within the 10 seconds. You have just been, effectively, debunked by my pathetic healer healing someone even higher ilevel.

Also, DRK's use Living Dead just as often as WAR's use Holmgang. It's the same purpose - though WAR's will tend to die from it due to no buffer time (6 sec total duration on Holmgang) or the fact that it'll bind them into an AoE they could never see coming.

Edits: I had put 1,900 hp and it's 19,000 hp, sorry for that. Fixed the numbers.

[technole]

Yes, Hallowed Ground is the epitome of an "oh shit" awesome button. However, Dark Knight - in my view - is substantially better off than a warrior is.

No, Holmgang is way better than LD simply because of the low cooldown time of 3 minutes. Like that allowed two uses in A1S back in the early days when we had to deal with 3 jumps, the other tank jobs couldn't even say the same about their immunities. Plus you can heal yourself with Equilibrium right after. The bind and target is just a hinderance. But it's far better than LD because the Warrior can address the 1 HP themselves before a healer can, not to mention other cooldowns to address HP. It's not even close, Holmgang is way better.

[Pibz]

No, Holmgang is way better than LD simply because of the low cooldown time of 3 minutes. Like that allowed two uses in A1S back in the early days when we had to deal with 3 jumps, the other tank jobs couldn't even say the same about their immunities. Plus you can heal yourself with Equilibrium right after. The bind and target is just a hinderance. But it's far better than LD because the Warrior can address the 1 HP themselves before a healer can, not to mention other cooldowns to address HP. It's not even close, Holmgang is way better.

Thank you, why this is so tough to get through is beyond me.

I dunno I can use Equilibrium + Second Wind to get to healthy levels after Holmgang as Warrior. I don't think LD is as bad as the OP is suggesting but it's still the weakest of the 3 except in very, very specific niche cases

That is exactly what im saying though. Never said it was horrible just that the other ones are significantly better, and it's definitely good in very specific cases.

4. Look back at this thread, not a single person has wholeheartedly shared your opinion, I think that says something about what you are saying and you should really evaluate that.

That is the worst kind of argument possible. I said i wouldn't reply to this kind of off topic stuff anymore but this is just too much, that is just not how being wrong/right works.

[Eidolon]

No, Holmgang is way better than LD simply because of the low cooldown time of 3 minutes. Like that allowed two uses in A1S back in the early days when we had to deal with 3 jumps, the other tank jobs couldn't even say the same about their immunities. Plus you can heal yourself with Equilibrium right after. The bind and target is just a hinderance. But it's far better than LD because the Warrior can address the 1 HP themselves before a healer can, not to mention other cooldowns to address HP. It's not even close, Holmgang is way better.

An interesting thought. I agree - we can help ourselves out more. But take a look at the skill by itself, not in relation to things that may or may not already be in use (We're addressing the concern that the skill as an 'oh **** button, not planned use with other CD's.)


Holmgang -> Shortest duration @6seconds, leaves you at 1 HP, binds you in place (And if the cast of a mob starts after you get bound, this can kill you as soon as the effect wears off depending on how strong the enemies attack is, and ther's no way to foresee it outside of scripted content.)
Hallowed Ground -> Longest cast, equal duration to living dead's "Walking Dead" uptime. No input really needed outside of topping them off at your convenience through HoT's. Very strong, very good.
Living Dead -> Moderate Recast, moderate utility, the only drawback is "Your healer has to heal you for it." and this can be handled with CD's, just as Holmgang can be hnadled with CD's from your healer.

Holmgang's one-up primarily comes from the utility that was built into it - that is, the additional effect of the Knock-back resistance. As a main WArrior, I do not use Holmgang outside of "OH crap" moments, or telegraphed knock-backs that can be resisted (And, if mistimed, your holmgang can actually activate AFTER a knockback and bind you way out in the middle of nowhere.)

Now, I do think there are some things that could be done better with Living Dead, but I also think it's in a comfortable spot. But I think the issue is, we're all very subjective. A main Dark Knight is gonna want their skill to be stronger, just like the OP. And a main warrior is gonna think of their skill as weaker, just like myself. I can admit a degree of bias here, but at the same time, I can see the heavy bias for Living Dead, which is by far to me one of the most powerful skills I see.

But it might just be "The grass is greener" at that point.

[DeeColon]

Stop white knighting ffs

I just almost snorted, how is effectively saying healers need to get good since there's nothing wrong with a tank skill white knighting? I'll just stop replying peace out.

[Pibz]

I just almost snorted, how is effectively saying healers need to get good since there's nothing wrong with a tank skill white knighting? I'll just stop replying peace out.

Well you just said the issue yourself, DRK living dead requires more effort out of healers (a lot more and you just agreed with me since you said healers need to get good) than any of the other skills with very little gains apart from extremely niche situations. And with the VIT changes it just got significantly worse for no reason and no benefit apart from the devs lack of foresight/ignorance.
It's basic design, if there are 2 skills that require significantly less effort for basically the same results, people will just overall prefer to have the easiest/most manageable ones.
Defending this kind of crap i can only assume due to some instinct to defend the game you play is indeed white knighting.

[Aryalandi]

ROFL, except no one played full vit ...

Stop white knighting ffs

-plays full vit on several characters, has had no issues- just throwing that out there.

On topic they could possibly adjust it so being healed as the ability goes off won't kill it, i really don't see it as being a horrible ability as its being called, it's a last resort.. last resorts usually happen.. when everything is going wrong, thus it's likely that the healer is paying attention at this point, just tell your party "things go wrong I'll last resort please watch for this if you can." Its cooperation.. its not that difficult.

[Pibz]

-plays full vit on several characters, has had no issues- just throwing that out there.

On topic they could possibly adjust it so being healed as the ability goes off won't kill it, i really don't see it as being a horrible ability as its being called, it's a last resort.. last resorts usually happen.. when everything is going wrong, thus it's likely that the healer is paying attention at this point, just tell your party "things go wrong I'll last resort please watch for this if you can." Its cooperation.. its not that difficult.

The problem is that the other abilities don't require nearly as much "coordination" as living dead plain and simple. And basic psychology and design principles tell you that people nearly always prefer the easiest solution. In fact if it wasn't for the fact that DRK had significantly more damage and better magic mitigation (tho it was mainly the more damage bit) people would have easily (very easily) prefered paladin already vs DRK in the last tier. Now with PLD damage being brought up to par more, i highly doubt anyone will want a Living vs a Hallowed (Wars will still be must have tanks, cause SE can't be bothered to do proper balance fixes but i'm not even getting into that) and that is the real issue.

Again, does Living Dead have roughly the same potential vs other cds with their timers into consideration- Yes, Is it also the most painful ability of the three to use by far- YES and that is the issue.