New Prelim Tank updates

[SpookyGhost]

Wanna know why its a common idea? It's better to nerf one thing than power creep everything else.

I just typed up an incredibly long thing, didn't copy it, and accidentally deleted everything so here is the tl;dr version:

Powercreep isn't this, putting WAR as the baseline (or constant) and bringing everyone up doesn't result in powercreep when every job is being brought down through the new VIT changes as well - you end up at a stable place where all 3 tanks are balanced. The same could be said about bringing WAR down, however bringing WAR down entirely to PLD/DRKs level makes for clunky design (which PLD/DRK currently have). In terms of DPS, I'd rather have everyone at the current highest point rather than the current lowest. There are tweaks WAR needs, mainly to Equilibrium (CD too short), RI (too powerful of a CD compared to the other 2, alternatively make Bulwark and Dark Dance stronger), and SE/SP (SE needs to be either changed entirely or give everyone a unique equivalent to it, SP needs to be brought down a bit and the STR debuff on RoH needs to be moved to RA, thus meaning that STR/INT down are constantly up at no cost to DPS and SP while more powerful is only up when you take the sacrifice of DPS - a trade off). PLD and DRK are fundamentally flawed as their whole niche is specifically mitigate 2 different types of damage, but the only way to balance things is for that extra mitigation to not matter, which results in both of them really having absolutely nothing going for them.

So, WAR needs tweaks and PLD/DRK need to be redesigned entirely. I really wish I could retype my entire post because it was pretty detailed about all the things I wanted to discuss but I swear it was like 15 paragraphs and I do not have the mental willpower to do that again. I hope my points make sense in this simplified version, if they don't then I can expand upon them if you or anyone has any questions.

At least we can all agree that Viridian City is sweet.

I have the strangest sensation that I'm being insulted.

Ah, sorry, I can see how this came off directed largely toward you - but it was mainly expanding upon my thoughts on Starbright's post rather than your's. I just kinda used your's as a bouncing off point to expand into other stuff that I wanted to make clear. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

[Torunya]

At least we can all agree that Viridian City is sweet.

No apologies necessary, I'll know not to grab the bait next time.

[Fyce]

No this should not be a thing. No job's blatant flaws should be band-aided over by content propping them up. Don't you remember how much shit DRK got for that these past two patches?

But, you cannot say that the DPS race and the concern with tank numbers only comes from the job balance. This wouldn't even be a thing if the DPS checks of Gordias weren't so high, or if you couldn't completly cheese a fight by brute-forcing it (A1S and Thordan). The tanking meta is strongly affected by the lastest raid tier available.

Besides, I don't see why it's a bad thing that some Tank jobs shines in certain ways. I mean, it's not because all three tanks shares the "tank role" that they absolutly must have the exact same amount of group utility and effectiveness in MT/OT places. This is absolutly not the case within DPS jobs and even less for healers...
... So why are the expectations so different with tanks?

[Reynhart]

... So why are the expectations so different with tanks?

Because, with the current raid, there is only one meaningful way.

The sad part is that, in the end, you always win by killing the boss. So, Gordias only made people realize what was already there, and what will probably always be. Even if Midas DPS check aren't as severe, people will want the most DPS they can...unless you make DPS numbers irrelevant, for example, by timing the phases (Hello, long wait for Twintania to come back) without allowing skips. Another option could be something like Moogle Mog, where you don't care how much damage the tanks do to the boss.

DPS aren't all at the same numbers, but they tend be balanced around their utility. With the same skilled players and the same gear, you could take probably any reasonable setup and achieve the same raid DPS ("Reasonable" meaning no 4 BRD parties )

[Starbirth]

I just typed up an incredibly long thing, didn't copy it, and accidentally deleted everything so here is the tl;dr version:
Powercreep isn't this, putting WAR as the baseline (or constant) and bringing everyone up doesn't result in powercreep when every job is being brought down through the new VIT changes as well - you end up at a stable place where all 3 tanks are balanced. The same could be said about bringing WAR down, however bringing WAR down entirely to PLD/DRKs level makes for clunky design (which PLD/DRK currently have). In terms of DPS, I'd rather have everyone at the current highest point rather than the current lowest. There are tweaks WAR needs, mainly to Equilibrium (CD too short), RI (too powerful of a CD compared to the other 2, alternatively make Bulwark and Dark Dance stronger), and SE/SP (SE needs to be either changed entirely or give everyone a unique equivalent to it, SP needs to be brought down a bit and the STR debuff on RoH needs to be moved to RA, thus meaning that STR/INT down are constantly up at no cost to DPS and SP while more powerful is only up when you take the sacrifice of DPS - a trade off). PLD and DRK are fundamentally flawed as their whole niche is specifically mitigate 2 different types of damage, but the only way to balance things is for that extra mitigation to not matter, which results in both of them really having absolutely nothing going for them.

So, WAR needs tweaks and PLD/DRK need to be redesigned entirely. I really wish I could retype my entire post because it was pretty detailed about all the things I wanted to discuss but I swear it was like 15 paragraphs and I do not have the mental willpower to do that again. I hope my points make sense in this simplified version, if they don't then I can expand upon them if you or anyone has any questions.

Clarity isn't the issue. I just don't agree with you.

The Vitality change is supposed to slightly nerf tank damage. Yoshi said this in an interview recently.

RI isn't that great of a skill actually. Its basically a Rampart or Shadowskin but only for physical attacks and the only buff to PLD defense that could be considered is bringing Bulwark CD down to 120 seconds. Instead increase the CD on Vengeance to 180 seconds. SE/SP is probably the only thing i can agree with you on though changes to these skills would require testing.

The whole physical and magical difference between PLD and DRK that people keep bringing up doesnt matter. PLD can mitigate magic pretty well and vice versa with DRK.

Anyways I'm off to class.

[SpookyGhost]

RI isn't that great of a skill actually.

I mean, as a WAR I'm perfectly fine with keeping it, but PLD's default CD kit is: Rampart, Sentinel, and Hallowed / DRK's is: Shadowskin, Shadow Wall, Living Dead / WAR's is: Vengeance, Thrill + Conv, RI, and Holmgang. It's only great in physical fights, but it's really great there, especially on fights with 60s tank busters and multistrike cleaves/tank busters. The only equivalent options DRK and PLD have to RI are Bulwark and Dark Dance, which are unreliable compared to it.

The whole physical and magical difference between PLD and DRK that people keep bringing up doesnt matter. PLD can mitigate magic pretty well and vice versa with DRK.

That's my point. Their key differences literally don't matter.

[Reynhart]

WAR's is: Vengeance, Thrill + Conv, RI, and Holmgang. It's only great in physical fights, but it's really great there, especially on fights with 60s tank busters and multistrike cleaves/tank busters.

Hmm...Inner Beast ?

That's the most usefull skill and really great for every type of damage.
And Storm's Path, if you really need all the mitigation you can, always up, and works on everything.

[Phoenicia]

Yeah I get what he's doing now, thanks.

I did not intend to "talk down" really and sorry if it came out as such a way. But as someone who has been harassed in the past to "switch" jobs for specific fights because they're better (and I can play them), I get triggered by such misinformed demands.

Examples like when some idiot tells me "Switch to PLD because WAR sucks in T9" when we are ilv130, which after a long argument the healer said "Healing Phoenicia's WAR was easier than all our PLDs in the FC". Or when someone tells me to use BLM instead of SMN because that other BLM he knows did 420 DPS only to be proven wrong when I do 450 on my SMN at ilv110. Why does it trigger me? It's needless "bossiness" that start unnecessary arguments when they are in the wrong and have no right forit when it doesn't even matter any more in the fist place. No body cares about min/maxing a T9 sell at ilv130 gear, right? Anyways I won't derail more.

Back to math. As people around the forum process data so wrongly and then "streamline" potency on all tank moves and then they come to IB and fail to do it (calling it a 300 potency which would mean it would barely do 1.02x the damage of BB while it does way more). If you want to call DA+SE a 400 potency move under Grit, IB is a 400 potency move under Defiance.

I'll use relative numbers instead of just multiplying/dividing by percentages to make it a bit clearer like when you calculated BB in comparison to IB for example:

IB:BB = IB damage compared to BB.

Absolute values under Defiance where IB ignores penalty (300) and BB loses 25% (210) without Maim:

300:210 = 1.43:1

Absolute values with Maim:

360:252 = 1.43:1

Comparative values with defiance penalty as "base value" and no Maim:

400:280 = 1.43:1

What the above means is: For each point of damage BB does, IB does 1.43.

What I am doing is keeping the potency of IB relative to the rest of WAR's other skills. Just like how DRK's DA+SE is 400 potency (regardless of buffs), WAR's IB is 400 potency (regardless f buffs). Absolutes (with buffs Grit+Darkness and Def+Main) you have DA:SE at 368 and IB at 360. (not taking slashing down because it will apply to both classes).

Basically what SE is doing by having it at 300 potency ignoring defiance is excluding it from Unchained's 33% damage buff. Basically removing 25% penalty back to 100% is the same as 33% damage increase if you consider the 75% of base as the "new base".

I hope this clears any misunderstanding in where how I'm treating the numbers and I apologize again if I sounded as a "down talker".

...Gordias only made people realize what was already there, and what will probably always be...

DPS aren't all at the same numbers, but they tend be balanced around their utility. With the same skilled players and the same gear, you could take probably any reasonable setup and achieve the same raid DPS ("Reasonable" meaning no 4 BRD parties )

I like how you bring up the "real" issues that matter. "What was already there" is "want for efficiency". As I said somewhere else: It's human nature: If something feels more efficient, they will do it.

As for the DPS not doing the same numbers, that is because, as long as it's reasonable, no matter the setup: You end up with the same raid DPS. Example: NIN does less damage than MNK, but it adds enough DPS to tanks and MNK (and everyone else) that it makes up for its inherently lower DPS. Another example: BRD and SMN do less DPS than BLM, but they have higher up time than BLM where BLM drops DPS as it move while SMN and BRD have DoTs ticking and instants to use while moving.

[SpookyGhost]

Hmm...Inner Beast ?

Sheltron/DA + DM also exist, though. I went into that in my 15 paragraph version, but yeah those 3 are weirdly aligned, mainly because of the physical/magical split, but PLD/DRK do have access to their powerful short CD button out of their tank stance which is pretty important to keep in mind. RI remains to be the outlier, though, as neither of the other tanks have an equivalent. If you count RI as Rampart, then that still means that Thrill + Conv exists. WARs just always have 1 extra CD available to use wherever, or in combo with their other CDs... on top of Equilibrium existing which is really insane (ie Vengeance + IB + Equilibrium -> Thrill + Convo + IB + RI + Second Wind -> repeat for a 60s tank buster rotation, or even use RI for cleaves if you don't need it for the tank buster). There's a lot of extra stuff WAR has because it's the self heal tank and PLD/DRK are just... tanks. I dunno, just seems weird to me.

[Reynhart]

There's a lot of extra stuff WAR has because it's the self heal tank and PLD/DRK are just... tanks. I dunno, just seems weird to me.

Even weirder when you consider that PLD is the only tank required to be educated in healing magic.