DPS: Why is it so dang taboo?

[Claymore65]

Like others have said, it's really in how you present the constructive criticism. Let's give two examples:

Unhelpful: "DPS is SLOOOOOW! Step it up, and git gud."
Helpful: "Hey, how's it going? I noticed you weren't using Heavy Thrust. If you work it into your Rotation, you'll find you deal much more damage. Just some advice."

You'll notice that the first comment doesn't actually do anything to improve the poor DPS player. It just tells them "step it up". If you don't understand your rotation...well, telling them "Do more damage" doesn't really do anything. If you don't know how to deal more damage, all it will do is irritate the player. If you give some friendly advice, in a polite manner, it tends to work much better. It also really helps if you ask if they want any advice before just declaring it. Just a simple "Can I give you some advice?" can do wonders.

On the "Political correctness" thing, there is a massive difference between being oversensitive, and someone legitimately being rude. Saying "Git Gud or GTFO" is just rude, and doesn't really improve anything. Saying "Hello, Fire spells deal much more damage than Ice spells, and Black Mages are intended to switch between the two" is a much better, more helpful piece of advice. If the player is a jerk about the advice, well, then the best option is to honestly just be quiet, deal with the slow run and go on with your day. One slow run is better than arguing through a whole dungeon.

[Ashkendor]

I also find it ludicrous how hard you work to strawman everyone that doesn't disagree with you. The "so PC, so PC!!!!" crowd always does this. You work as hard as you can to demonize people not wanting others to be jerks to them and dress it up as being hypersensitive or overly politically correct when really, most people would just prefer game interactions to be civil. If someone's DPS is subpar, there are ways to say it other than "you suck, scrub" or worse. That you throw around "butthurt" and "super casual" give me a good idea what kind of interactions you likely have. :/

His wording is pretty harsh but he's not wrong. I try to give constructive advice/criticism when I'm in a position to do so (i.e. when I'm familiar with the class in question) and the reaction to that is still very mixed. You never know if the person is going to take the advice in stride, ignore it completely, or react like I told them to go jump off a cliff. "I know how to play my class, thanks" is one of the more polite "negative" replies I've gotten. "Shut the *&#$ up, you don't pay my sub" is among the ruder ones. Some people just can't handle being told that they could be doing it better, even if you're offering them the means to do so.

If the player is a jerk about the advice, well, then the best option is to honestly just be quiet, deal with the slow run and go on with your day. One slow run is better than arguing through a whole dungeon.

I'd rather just kick them and potentially get someone better. Or at least someone with a better attitude.

[melisande]

*grabs popcorn* another thread about how you just cant possibly improve your DPS without 3rd party apps.

[HakaseNyan]

I just keep quiet when people are facerolling the keyboard. It's actually quite amusing, in its own sad little way, when someone with better gear is doing -300 to -600 dps less than you. I like having people like that around, actually, because it reminds me I'll never be that bad.

It doesn't matter if you're kind or abusive. It's different strokes of different folks. People will get offended at anything.

[Callback]

I don't parse myself, but BisEX was kind enough to give me a visual demonstration of how bad DF DPS are. On the twin mobs, my friend and I (both DPS) were lucky enough to both get the same debuff twice in a row. We finished our mob and turned to the other. It was at 70%. 70% FULL.

I don't get why YoshiP is resistant to making S3 an actual requirement. There's no elitism in a simple binary between "can do the absolute minimum to carry their own weight" and "can't." If you try S3 and can't do it, you shouldn't be trying to join the duty yet, and lying in PF about it to bait a carry is a serious abuse of other people's time and should be bannable.

[Judge_Xero]

*grabs popcorn* another thread about how you just cant possibly improve your DPS without 3rd party apps.

Or the reading comprehension of a 6 year old.

[tgoodner]

I don't get why YoshiP is resistant to making S3 an actual requirement. There's no elitism in a simple binary between "can do the absolute minimum to carry their own weight" and "can't." If you try S3 and can't do it, you shouldn't be trying to join the duty yet, and lying in PF about it to bait a carry is a serious abuse of other people's time and should be bannable.

Honestly, Stone, Sky and Sea does very little to alter the current state of the game, other than to give players who don't use 3rd party applications an abstract idea of their performance. As for myself, I'd rather just leave a PF group that's underperforming than try to ostracize a player that may be uninformed or ignorant about their theoretical potential. If a player wants to get better, they'll put the effort in to do so.

[Callback]

Honestly, Stone, Sky and Sea does very little to alter the current state of the game, other than to give players who don't use 3rd party applications an abstract idea of their performance. As for myself, I'd rather just leave a PF group that's underperforming than try to ostracize a player that may be uninformed or ignorant about their theoretical potential. If a player wants to get better, they'll put the effort in to do so.

There's no ostracizing involved. I'm suggesting that if they can't clear S3 they can't queue at all without a premade who agrees to take them.

You'd rather continue having players lazy players effectively AFK and try to leech carries, forcing you to leave and re-queue wasting more of your time just for another group that's likely the same exact thing, than have a system that actually verifies that everybody you're potentially matched with is at least capable of being an active participant before throwing you into a duty together?

Tell me, what's the difference between that and just removing minimum ilvl requirements as well? A leecher's a leecher whether i200 or i150. If you're so content to just let them invade random parties without contributing, why not let them invade ones above their level too?

Using S3 as an unlock condition to join a duty in DF can only help the system. The "harassment" argument is ridiculous. You get a lot more harassment when someone joins a party while unable to contribute and wastes people's time than if the system itself informs them they are not ready yet and blocks them from joining in the first place.

[Ryel]

Using S3 as an unlock condition to join a duty in DF can only help the system. The "harassment" argument is ridiculous. You get a lot more harassment when someone joins a party while unable to contribute and wastes people's time than if the system itself informs them they are not ready yet and blocks them from joining in the first place.

Wait was this confirmed that Stone, Sky, Sea were going to be required unlock conditions for duties? The latest interviews with Yoshida seemed to imply that this was NOT the case and that they were purely optional practice tools. In which case the person you are quoting is entirely correct in that they will do very little to alter the status quo of the game.

It might help some players sure, but if they aren't an express requirement for entering a duty (which once again i don't believe that they are) it won't really do much of anything for the players that already think they're "good enough" and just skip it.

From the translated interview:

Challenging a striking dummy before going into battle in "Stone, Sky, Sea"

What are the conditions to unlock "Stone, Sky, Sea"?

Yoshida: Each item will be unlocked when the corresopnding battle content is opened. The procedure to begin Stone, Sky, Sea itself is very simple. When you talk to the warrior in Idyllshire, he'll inform you that given the difference in players' arms, he's come up with a way for warriors to test their skills against a formidable enemy. From there, you'll exit Idyllshire and follow the navigation tips to the area.

Is the idea that you can use Stone, Sky, Sea as an objective measure for party recruitment?

Yoshida: Since that could lead to selectivity, we won't include that. You could put something like DPS who can clear with more than a few seconds as a comment, but players who look at it would have to assess themselves.

Of course, but they may have had no challenge based on their equipment.

Yoshida: Since the purpose is to become confident with the equipment you have and your current action rotation, there is no item-level sync. For example, if you attempt the extreme Bismarck Stone, Sky, Sea challenge at an average item level of 210 it should be easy. On the other hand, if you try the Alexander Midas Savage challenge with gear from Gordias, most people will find that to be quite tough. Then as you strengthen your equipment, you can come back and try the challenge again to become more confident that you can clear... the content is meant to be used in that way. It's a way to check that your equipment and skill are developing in parallel.

Original source: Bookwalker Famitsu Weekly item listing (3/3 issue)


Translation source: Yoshida on Patch 3.2 Content - Famitsu Translation

EDIT: Reread, I'm tired you're saying they SHOULD in which case i agree.

[Ragnorak]

Outside of savage and maybe thordan no reason for anyone to "gitgud" cuz theres no challenge. Sad day when top 2 dps in Void ark are two tanks and one of them is MT.
Its not often you see tanks or healers complain about having to do there job. God forbid theres a dps check tho all hell breaks loose