Is FFXIV viable as an MMORPG without doing end-game & raiding?

[Kaurie]

Looks like I got another post. I wish they'd at least give us a countdown somewhere so we'd know when the damn thing refreshed.

Yeah, i review my history sometimes to see and countdown lol. The forum limit is very frustrating.

I guess, I took from the tone of the OP that they were looking at it in a broader sense—is the game something that people can play without raiding? The answer to that is yes. Whether or not an individual will like the game without raiding is a different question entirely, as individuals are complex creatures.

I guess I see that as a non-question, as the OP is currently playing the game and not raiding. So, of course people can do it and the OP knows it. So I figured that there must be a deeper meaning, and that is why I took the route I did.

None of the wealth of the game's non-raiding content matters if someone doesn't find that content fun—but once you start getting into the subjective stuff, you're not really talking about a general sense of whether the game provides enough outside of raiding anymore.

Indeed, I think FFXIV delivers a lot outside of raiding, and in my opinion it's mostly terrible. So in that sense, I don't think it's viable outside of raiding. However, some people enjoy it, and it's there, so in that sense it is viable.

But in general, the game's certainly viable for non-raiders that find its gameplay fun, like the aesthetics, love Final Fantasy, or whatever.

No argument, but I don't see how this could even be a question, nevermind warrant a discussion topic.

I've got a friend from FFXI and WoW who's not a raider anymore due to having more to do outside of gaming than he used to (married, kids, work, etc). He loves Guild Wars 2 because he feels like it doesn't ask as much of him in terms of investment (his main hangup for FFXIV is the MSQ requirements, for what it's worth, and he's looking at going back to WoW for Legion).

Pretty much what I am getting at

I don't recommend the game to him because of his individual circumstances, but I'd recommend trying it to most MMO players if I didn't know much of their general preferences who don't raid if they'd enjoyed similar games in the past (namely, WoW, which is the game's closest analogue), especially if they were fans of Final Fantasy generally (which you aren't, of course).

Ah, you must remember from another post! Yes, I am not a long time FF fan, but I still enjoy this game and its story. They are amazing. I think that how viable this game is depends very much on your general preferences, and if you weren't in to raiding, I would undoubtedly recommend a different MMO.

[Alahra]

Indeed, I think FFXIV delivers a lot outside of raiding, and in my opinion it's mostly terrible. So in that sense, I don't think it's viable outside of raiding. However, some people enjoy it, and it's there, so in that sense it is viable.

I'm relatively sure it's that second sense the OP was getting at, at least going by context. Who knows why they thought to ask the question. Maybe it was a thought prompted by an in-game discussion with someone, or whatever else.

Overall, though, I think you're actually answering a different question than the one the OP asked, at least in the full context of their longer answer. They weren't necessarily asking "could raiders have fun in this game if they didn't raid?" but more "can a non-raider enjoy this game?" since they specifically bring up the fact that raiding players probably wouldn't enjoy the game without raiding.

I think it may also come down to the definition of "viable," though. You seem to be using it in a different sense than I am. If someone asks me "Is this viable?" that, to me is the same question as "Can this work?" whereas you seem to be answering a question that is more "Would you like this?" Viability isn't generally something determined based on subjective values.

At the post cap again. *sigh*

Indeed, I may have misunderstood the post due to my perception of the question I was reading being too obvious. I wasn't answering, "could raiders have fun in this game if they didn't raid?". I was answering, "If I do not enjoy raiding, is this the right game for me?"

Looks like I edited a bit more as you were responding: but essentially, the question you're answering isn't one of viability but rather one of subjective preference. Whether someone will like a game comes down to a ton of stuff that doesn't have much to do with the game's viability i.e., its potential to be successful or functional.

Put another way, asking if the game is "viable" for non-raiders is the same as asking whether it is feasible (or possible) that a non-raider could enjoy it. Again, the answer to that question is yes. An option can be feasible or possible even if another option might in some ways be better.

For sure, sorry for draining your posts! I think that I just assumed viable wasn't really the word the OP meant to be using, as again the answer to that is obvious.

Well, what's obvious to one person may not be obvious to another. The OP seems to have put a lot of thought into it—maybe it was a thought experiment, maybe they were wondering about whether they should recommend the game to someone, or whatever else. I'm sure you know the old adage about what happens when one assumes, after all.

[Kaurie]

I'm relatively sure it's that second sense the OP was getting at, at least going by context. Who knows why they thought to ask the question. Maybe it was a thought prompted by an in-game discussion with someone, or whatever else.

Overall, though, I think you're actually answering a different question than the one the OP asked, at least in the full context of their longer answer. They weren't necessarily asking "could raiders have fun in this game if they didn't raid?" but more "can a non-raider enjoy this game?" since they specifically bring up the fact that raiding players probably wouldn't enjoy the game without raiding.

Indeed, I may have misunderstood the post due to my perception of the question I was reading being too obvious. I wasn't answering, "could raiders have fun in this game if they didn't raid?". I was answering, "If I do not enjoy raiding, is this the right game for me?"

I think it may also come down to the definition of "viable," though. You seem to be using it in a different sense than I am. If someone asks me "Is this viable?" that, to me is the same question as "Can this work?" whereas you seem to be answering a question that is more "Would you like this?" Viability isn't generally something determined based on subjective values.

For sure, sorry for draining your posts! I think that I just assumed viable wasn't really the word the OP meant to be using, as again the answer to that is obvious. It's like asking if it's viable to listen to Justin Bieber if you don't attend concerts. Of course you can still listen to him without attending his concerts - Personally, I hate Justin Bieber, so it's not very viable :P but yes, you can. It's a non question. It's asking, "can you enjoy something that was specifically made so you can enjoy it?". Yes. Why are you asking us this?

Well, what's obvious to one person may not be obvious to another. The OP seems to have put a lot of thought into it—maybe it was a thought experiment, maybe they were wondering about whether they should recommend the game to someone, or whatever else. I'm sure you know the old adage about what happens when one assumes, after all.

I guess.

I'll just assume I misunderstood the post and bow out, as the post as you are describing is a conversation I don't really feel I want to contribute to

[Kosmos992k]

I guess I see that as a non-question, as the OP is currently playing the game and not raiding. So, of course people can do it and the OP knows it. So I figured that there must be a deeper meaning, and that is why I took the route I did.

Yes and no. There was not any hidden deeper meaning, I just wanted to get a discussion going about whether the veritable mountain of content that encompasses the game was a sufficient draw to keep the game healthy, even if players joining now look at the mountain and wonder whether they can reach the top. Yes, I am playing now, and I feel that there is more than enough here to keep people satisfied, without participating in the current patch series raids. But that's my opinion, not yours or anyone else's.

I wanted to know how others feel. I've many times read posts from players who obviously fall into the category of 'raider' suggesting that without them, without raids, the game would die. I'm not so sure of that, so that was part of why I was asking, to see what people think about playing this game without raid content. Clearly though the game benefits from having a wide range of players including raiders, and there needs to be content for those players to keep them happy and engaged. That raid content that might be considered irrelevant by players like myself right now, will probably become more relevant once the 4.X series of patches arrive. Just as through overgearing, it's possible to start enjoying harder end-game and raid content from FFXIV 2.X now that we can gear up with 3.X.

The thing is, I play to relax, and have previously found end-game to be stressful to me. I don't enjoy it. I can do it, but I don't enjoy it. Overgearing and power creep means that over time content that was once stressful, is no longer a source of stress, and can be enjoyed. It's often concluded that players who don't participate in end-game do not do so because they are not good enough. that's a fallacy IMHO. I do not participate because RL time restrictions make it very nearly impossible, and because I want to relax when I play, so I avoid stressful content; not because I can't do it.

[Naraku_Diabolos]

Right now I finished the 3.1 storyline. I'm working on my crafting to Lv45 (BTN and MIN are 46 while FSH is 45) as I am also leveling up DRK (it's already at 45), AST (Lv44), and MCH (it's 40) to Lv45, so I'm doing that in tandem. I want to get my crafting and gathering up, as well as my extra jobs (HW ones) even with my ones from the 2.x series so I can save money making my own gear. I have NIN at 60 and I may start out on Anima Relic. I also want to finish the 2.x Relics as well, and those are at the Animus upgrade stage (with the books; NIN already has the Relic Animus with books done). I'm also wanting to at least complete my crafting log by making one of each item just to show that I made something at least once. Same with fishing and gathering. I also want to do Coil and CT (IF my FC can help me as well as the server), then also do normal Alexander and Void Ark, and maybe start AS once everything is 60 and I get my gear current...

[Kaurie]

Yes and no. There was not any hidden deeper meaning, I just wanted to get a discussion going about whether the veritable mountain of content that encompasses the game was a sufficient draw to keep the game healthy, even if players joining now look at the mountain and wonder whether they can reach the top. Yes, I am playing now, and I feel that there is more than enough here to keep people satisfied, without participating in the current patch series raids. But that's my opinion, not yours or anyone else's.


I wanted to know how others feel. I've many times read posts from players who obviously fall into the category of 'raider' suggesting that without them, without raids, the game would die. I'm not so sure of that, so that was part of why I was asking, to see what people think about playing this game without raid content. Clearly though the game benefits from having a wide range of players including raiders, and there needs to be content for those players to keep them happy and engaged. That raid content that might be considered irrelevant by players like myself right now, will probably become more relevant once the 4.X series of patches arrive. Just as through overgearing, it's possible to start enjoying harder end-game and raid content from FFXIV 2.X now that we can gear up with 3.X.

The thing is, I play to relax, and have previously found end-game to be stressful to me. I don't enjoy it. I can do it, but I don't enjoy it. Overgearing and power creep means that over time content that was once stressful, is no longer a source of stress, and can be enjoyed. It's often concluded that players who don't participate in end-game do not do so because they are not good enough. that's a fallacy IMHO. I do not participate because RL time restrictions make it very nearly impossible, and because I want to relax when I play, so I avoid stressful content; not because I can't do it.

Gotcha, thanks for taking the time to reply and clarify what you meant. I'm sorry if I derailed your thread.

In response to,

I've many times read posts from players who obviously fall into the category of 'raider' suggesting that without them, without raids, the game would die.

I feel that it comes down to two things (in my opinion).

1. There is a trickle down effect, that even if you don't directly raid, the raiding scene does impact you. This could be in creating demand for crafted food and potions, and it could mean that it attracts more 'hardcore' players who are invested enough to research and build guides for non raiders to peruse.

2. I would love for FFXIV to be better outside of the raiding scene. As I mentioned, I feel this game is fairly terrible outside of raids. Seasonal events, gold saucer activities, crafting, gathering, hunts, FATEs are all similar things that are implemented in other games but done so much worse here (again, in my opinion). I wrote a lot about Guild Wars 2, but in regards to those sorts of things, GW2 is great.

In that same sense, however, a game without raids will definitely not die. Guild Wars 2 is a perfect example of this. It's estimated to be a fairly similar active playerbase to FFXIV (perhaps slightly higher), and it only just recently added raids.

[Kosmos992k]

Gotcha, thanks for taking the time to reply and clarify what you meant. I'm sorry if I derailed your thread.

Thanks, and there is no derailment I can see, justva good discussion.

1. There is a trickle down effect, that even if you don't directly raid, the raiding scene does impact you. This could be in creating demand for crafted food and potions, and it could mean that it attracts more 'hardcore' players who are invested enough to research and build guides for non raiders to peruse.

I agree with this. Like I was saying above the raids that dedicated or hardcore raiders are working on in 3.X will become the content that many other players enjoy for the first time around the time 4.0 drops. So, in addition to the trickle down you mention, the content trickles down too. Also, that trickle down you mentioned is a pretty darn good argument against segregating end game/raiding on separate servers.

It would be nice if the community could find a way to break down the walls we've created and build bridges between parts ofnthe community instead.

2. I would love for FFXIV to be better outside of the raiding scene. As I mentioned, I feel this game is fairly terrible outside of raids. Seasonal events, gold saucer activities, crafting, gathering, hunts, FATEs are all similar things that are implemented in other games but done so much worse here (again, in my opinion).

I wish you could like the game more, but it's all about personal preference. I'll hope SE manages to find a way to please you more. GW2 has never really had a pull on me, but then I'm a JRPG fan, so this game gives some of what I want.

[therpgfanatic]

I took a very long break (about 10 months) from playing the game because I had taken on a new very demanding job that I only recently moved on from. I now have more flexible hours so I re-regged as a distraction to get my mind off work when I'm not at work.

Even without raiding, this game is pretty demanding as to even complete a single basic quest can run an hour depending on how much dialogue must be read, and realm hopping is needed. People say the game is casual friendly, but this isn't Angry Birds or anything. There is quite a heavy time investment needed. The most serious players appear to basically live in the game. This is common in RPGs, especially MMORPGs. The more time you invest into the game, the more resources you have. It's a linear progression treadmill that encourages more time investment by rewarding that time.

Raiding is part of the progression treadmill. Players don't have to do it, but the game design pushes players toward it. At some point you simply can't improve your character to the max the system allows without engaging in it. Still, players don't have to get into raiding to enjoy the game -- there are a lot of side activities outside of the linear progression treadmill of item level.