Is FFXIV viable as an MMORPG without doing end-game & raiding?

[DPZ2]

Viable? Certainly. For the long term? Depends on your style of play, I would guess.

I would still have purchased the game (and its expansion) if there hadn't been a bit of end-game raiding involved. I played WoW for 7 years -- in my first three months of FFXIV I played through more dungeon instances than all of those years.

End-game isn't the only game. I know this gets frustrating for those who think the whole purpose for the MMORPG genre is to raid.

Time-wise, three years is certainly a long time in the non-F2P world these days. SWOTR didn't make it that long. Wildstar didn't make it that long. LOTR didn't make it that long. Wow is the Great Exception, I guess. And, of course, FFXIV.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

What's with this almost holier-than-thou, "I don't raid, so ha!" sense in some of the statements here? It needs to be said that endgame does not equal raids alone. Yoshi P said it himself once: endgame is a broad spectrum for FFXIV. Glamour, housing, crafting and gathering, all of it comprises endgame. Zeroing in on raiding and all but demonizing it is rather shortsighted and not terribly fair.

In fairness, I enjoy raiding perhaps second to glamour. (I change glams like I change underwear. Most often, it IS my underwear. Don't judge me :P) I enjoy most aspects of endgame, but none more so than raiding, and I'm far from server/world first-caliber. This makes it no more or less valid than other aspects of endgame; it's simply what I and several friends enjoy the most. Mileage varies among players, and knowing that, SE delivers various things under the banner of endgame.

I suppose it'd be best to say with the game's design and offerings, enjoyment at endgame is what you make of it.

[Kosmos992k]

What's with this almost holier-than-thou, "I don't raid, so ha!" sense in some of the statements here?

No "Holier than thou" from me, I'm quite clear that I am not a raider. For various real life reasons I haven't been able to stay completely current with content, despite playing since beta phase 3. I would probably be a 'casual' raider if life hadn't got in the way.

I very, very specifically do not want this to become one of those threads where two polarized groups call each other names because one group likes raiding and the other doesn't.

It needs to be said that endgame does not equal raids alone. Yoshi P said it himself once: endgame is a broad spectrum for FFXIV. Glamour, housing, crafting and gathering, all of it comprises endgame. Zeroing in on raiding and all but demonizing it is rather shortsighted and not terribly fair.

That's a good point. I guess I was falling into the trap a lot of people do where end-game and Raiding are nearly synonymous. However there is no demonizing, as I said in my previous post, SE needs to be careful in their handling of raiding in the game, careful in the sense of handling things well and keeping raiders happy. I'm talking about end-game being the current raid(s), HM dungeons and EX primals. I'm trying not to quantify in terms of ilvl or anything like that because I don't think that matters. The concept of end-game content in an MMORPG is pretty clear - the latest and hardest battle content - even if Yoshi wants to muddy the waters by including other things. In truth, many of the other things he may have mentioned as 'end-game' do not require the skill that end-game battle content and raids require. The result is that those things are far more accessible and I wasn't thinking of them as 'end-game' in this discussion.

In fairness, I enjoy raiding perhaps second to glamour. (I change glams like I change underwear. Most often, it IS my underwear. Don't judge me :P) I enjoy most aspects of endgame, but none more so than raiding, and I'm far from server/world first-caliber. This makes it no more or less valid than other aspects of endgame; it's simply what I and several friends enjoy the most. Mileage varies among players, and knowing that, SE delivers various things under the banner of endgame.

SE delivers several things under the banner of End-game. Based on the content itself, the only areas of the game that can be considered end-game would be the current Raid(s) and EX primals, along with craft specialization and related gathering. Other things such as Housing, gardening, etc are all things that have been in the game long enough that they are no longer on that leading edge, and are far more accessible to the general player base. The one caveat being Housing, it's 'accessible' unless you're on a high population server and can't get a home for love nor money of course. SE say they are doing things to fix Housing, so let's leave that discussion to a Housing topic.

I suppose it'd be best to say with the game's design and offerings, enjoyment at endgame is what you make of it.

110% agreed.

I wasn't trying to create an us vs. them discussion. Which brings me back to my question at the end of my last post;

Can they(SE) tailor content to each part of the community without hurting the other?

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Thank you for the clarifications. And I wholeheartedly believe that there can in fact be a balance among them. The wild card of course, is players.

Anything that is not tailored to be or supportive of leveling can essentially be considered endgame or side content. Things like Hildibrand cases, the Gold Saucer, even the Diadem in some cases. But bear in mind some may not like Hildibrand or may completely ignore certain content (I've got lots of cards, but have only maybe played less than 10 Triple Triad matches). SE can only provide the content or adjust it based on player feedback. Thus, the players are the true variable in the equation.

Using myself as example again, my FC knows I absolutely love the challenging stuff more than anything. Not much of a crafter (most of them are) and gathering's kind of a Zen thing for me that I do recreationally. I've left a standing offer with my crafter friends to call on me if they need Coil/primal mats. I'm more than happy to get them. In return, they are happy to furnish/supply my efforts. In reverse, for the sake of leveling my gathering and support their crafts, I'm willing to get whatever they need and more often than not, I'm requesting crafts for my late night hobby of interior design anyways.

It's not perfect, but it's a circle of life easily replicated by the community as a whole, thus making endgame an almost self-sustaining thing, even with the human variables.

[RiceisNice]

No "Holier than thou" from me, I'm quite clear that I am not a raider. For various real life reasons I haven't been able to stay completely current with content, despite playing since beta phase 3. I would probably be a 'casual' raider if life hadn't got in the way.

I very, very specifically do not want this to become one of those threads where two polarized groups call each other names because one group likes raiding and the other doesn't.

It was more directed in the general replies on this topic (and really, the forums in general)

. IMO it's just really not a good mindset to have since you're essentially telling people "you're playing this game wrong", when said game is built around the concept of a themepark with some sandbox aspects, and that the players are infact, genuinely getting bored because of how content is being designed/released.

Can they(SE) tailor content to each part of the community without hurting the other?

In a nutshell, they can. The problem I feel is that they aren't doing a very good job of doing because they're falling short of almost every content they've introduced. The new players are enjoying the game for the reasons we enjoyed 2.0, not 3.0. All the added-on content from 3.0 and onward has bit messy at best (Diadem, LoV, 2 dungeons per cycle). As someone who did expert roulette/coinflip everyday, I've noticed a significant decrease of lasting power in the expert dungeons, whether it be because of the fact it's only two for a roulette cycle, or that it's boring boss/mob mechanics throughout (it's both in some cases), and gets more exasperated as the gear scaling increases because of how undertuned it gets. It may also be just me, but I also feel there's been an incredible disconnect between the developers and players. I find myself disagreeing more with Yoshida's liveletter and interview points more than acknowledging or even maintain a neutral stance about it.

It's not perfect, but it's a circle of life easily replicated by the community as a whole, thus making endgame an almost self-sustaining thing, even with the human variables.

It can also go both ways. If I can't find a reason to log in, my friends and most likely some static members are gonna drop the game collectively and probably not come back until after the release of 4.0, if ever. But like I mentioned, a lot of it has to do with the fact that I'm frustrated and don't agree with a lot of the design points and viewpoints of the developers, and almost feels that they've lost sight of what made the game good (not to mentioned all the dropped talks about housing, egi glamours, and numerous other things that have fallen into purgatory.) Players are a finite resource for the game, and no amount of new recruits via a revolving door design is going to help if the retention isn't good enough.

[kuma_aus]

I enjoy playing the game and I enjoy helping friends. So no matter how much I've completed the game or done everything in it, all it takes is a friend to say "Hey anyone want to go gathering in Diadem?" or something and I will be enjoying my time in FFXIV for half an hour or more. So if you actually enjoy playing the game and doing the content in game I think you can be fine without touching current progression raiding as long as you have people to do a varied amount of content with every now and then (Even if these people are randoms from Party Finder/Duty Finder).

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

You've got a very good point, Rice. I myself still have a list of grievances long enough to wrap around myself and call it glamour, but generally, my entertainment still outweighs my upset/disappointment. Now if that scale ever tips, I might simply step away from the game, temporarily or permanently, and I would hope any and all players think in a similar vein. A sudden change in player metrics, even if not publically noted, never goes unnoticed (hence the PLD buffs, LB changes for party comps, etc.)

All in all, I couldn't say they're doing it all right with a straight face, but they're at least providing a decent spread. Metaphorically, what I eat, how much I eat, or if I'm even hungry at all isn't really in their control in the end.

[l---------------l]

No, at least not for me.

I can't consider I get fun in FFXIV if I have the potential to do REALLY COMPETENT endgame and beat stuff server first, but, I don't have the correct group of people to do it, thus, end demoralized and or without raid.

If I don't have raid, my only options are relic grind, (Hate crafting-gathering) and PvP... Ultimately, I have been so bored this past month without raiding that I leveled an alt to be my second option in 3.2 for tanks and melee, in case the main is gearing up first casters-healers.

[Igneous]

There's solo PvP ?! . Oh yeah. I def have to hit max lvl

[Ryel]

Without "endgame" would FFXIV be viable as a subscription based MMO?

I don't think it would be, no.

However if this were a B2P game supported by it's cash shop like Guild Wars 2 then yes I would say it's model would be very viable, even preferred with this games patch release schedule.

As mentioned by another poster in this thread the majority of the content you listed can be broken down into a few categories; either it's done once and once only, its done simultaneously with other activities (as in done together to complete common objectives, see: leveling), isn't available for all players equally, or isn't really supported enough to be worth doing all that often due to either lack of DF / matchmaking support, proper rewards, or the fact that it cannot be done while taking part in other content.

A really light and not so detailed shortlist would look something like..

Content done once and once only:

MSQ
Most quests
Hardmode (story) Primals / trials

Content that can be completed either simultaneously or in parallel:

MSQ
Majority of sidequests
leveling jobs
dungeons
FATEs
Relic (after MSQ obv)
Guildhests
Hunts
Levequests

Content that is limited in accessibility:

Housing
Gardening
Chocobo stables
Company airships

Content not supported in a way that makes them fully viable activities:

Lords of Verminion
Triple Triad
Chocobo racing
PvP (Your mileage may vary)

Keep in mind that isn't to say that stuff like LoV and Chocobo racing isn't fun because personally I enjoy both on occasion, but if nobody is really doing either or refuses to play with others (win trading queues) because there's no proper system implemented that allows you to play with a greater pool of players I can't really count them as viable pastimes.

This means that at level cap the content that is designed to be done repeatedly and thus keep your sub going is the content that continues your character progression, which is mainly Ex Primals and "Raids" (SE's definition of raids would include the crystal tower and void ark series in this but going by your post i assume these are excluded) AKA Coil when it was relevant and now Savage Alexander. They obviously have tried methods of releasing alternate ways of achieving ilvl progression at cap with things like Diadem and adding Eso upgrades to Hunts and VA but they're always released as a supplement to raids or they'd be introduced at the start of the patch and not at the end.

The overall player response to the latter part of the 2.x series (when FCoB was on it's 8 month stretch) and the majority of the 3.x series has supported this idea thus far.

If you are a brand new player or are a player who never really reaches level cap (takes a long, long time to do so) then sure it looks like a wealth of content is available in the game, however if you're a player who continuously makes moderate strides and headway (keeps somewhat current), then what initially looks like a wealth of activities slowly begins to dwindle down into not many things on your plate. Additionally if you are a player who actively avoids endgame content like Ex primals and raids you have the fallback of constantly telling yourself that "there's plenty more to do!" because now there is an entire section of content you're just refusing to touch which you tell yourself you can chose to attempt at any time in the future, If that content wasn't there however (say if they removed Ex primals or something) the pool would begin to look much, much smaller.