Classes vs Jobs status?

[dinnertime]

That could be seen as subjective though. It wasn't ideal but good SMNs could still complete FCoB without being a hinderance to their teams. Not to mention the extra utilities they brought via Resurrection / SuperVirus. It was a safer option to bring a BLM, but I wouldn't say SMNs failed by any means. It was just the concept of not being able to buff one job without it affecting the other which failed, in my opinion.

I just really believe it was a weak job in 2.x. While they have more room for mistakes and mobility than BLM and the utilities, I still think BLM is a much better option because of their high DPS and infinite MP. I suppose saying that SMN failing in 2.x is quite harsh but I guess I'd call it as a weak job at the time...but not anymore.

[Enkidoh]

ACN having two Jobs failed because of an oversight on SE's part connected to the change to ARR - in that each class/Job's abilities were specifically controlled or guided by one stat, thus players would naturally pump most of their AP into that stat (like, MND for CNJ/WHM). This worked fine for a single Job, as each Job generally refined the role of it's based class and thus continued to make use of it's controlling stat.

ACN though, which was officially designated as a magic DPS, (and thus INT would be it's guiding stat), suddenly had a healer Job option in addition to it's DPS Job - thus those who put all their AP into INT and wanted to play as SCH found themselves stuck, as their healing spells (which required high MND) was neutered.

A band aid solution was found by reducing greatly the price for Keeper's Hymns (which allow the player to reset a class's spent AP), but it wasn't really fixing the root cause of the issue. Either way, it showed too many flaws with the system and thus SE abandoned trying to give other classes multiple Jobs, leaving ACN's two Jobs as an orphan, an experiment that just didn't work as well as they had hoped.

As for the Heavensward Jobs having no base class and starting at level 30, that was born from an entirelly different cause and was yet another failed experiment on SE's part - as the new Jobs were gained from Ishgard that not only required level 50 access, it also did not have a level 1 area next to it - the min level for enemies in Coerthas Central Highlands is around the mid 30s. And given the fact the expansion's storyline kind of has the player on the run from the starting cities, it created a tight spot in providing a location to level new classes and Jobs with. Thus, the new HW Jobs were made as separate 'Extra Jobs' and not regular 'Disciples of War or Magic'.

Again this hasn't worked as well as SE were hoping - one of the main reasons for even having levels is it allows the player to gradually learn how to play as the class, starting with one or two basic abilities and then as they gain exp learn new abilities that compliment what they've already learned. With the HW Jobs however, that isn't the case. Players are suddenly chucked in the deep end and given 30 levels worth of exp instantly and told "Off you go, it's up to you now." Although most players did get the hang of the new Jobs more or less eventually, it was still a rather unfortunate affair all round and showed just how poor this idea really is.

Really (and I've mentioned this in a few earlier threads), in a perfect world I would love SE to actually bring consistency back to the Armoury System, and change these experiments to bring them in line with the rest of classes/Jobs - starting with removing SCH from ACN and giving it's own new base class (Mediator?), and then add three base classes to the Heavensward Jobs, thus changing them to proper Disciples of War and Magic - starting with bringing in the long dummied out class Musketeer which would be an obvious choice for MCH, with AST and DRK getting, say, Mystic and Ravager respectively? With that done, I would love to see maybe a change to the base classes made by removing cross-class limitations on class abilities while a Job crystal is not equipped, thus truly allowing players to experiment with customization, and leaving Jobs for duties, dungeons and raiding. But, such an idea is probably sadly unlikely by this stage (*sighs sadly*).

[Lego3400]

ACN having two Jobs failed because of an oversight on SE's part connected to the change to ARR - in that each class/Job's abilities were specifically controlled or guided by one stat, thus players would naturally pump most of their AP into that stat (like, MND for CNJ/WHM). This worked fine for a single Job, as each Job generally refined the role of it's based class and thus continued to make use of it's controlling stat.

The obvious fix going forwards is to let you redisribute those points per Job. Have the devs actually ever said it failed?

One of many cases where the idea was more varied and interesting than the reality. The only reason they can't take out allocations altogether now is because of SMN/SCH specifically. Otherwise I'd agree that it should be done away with.

Nah it could be done away with. Your stats change as it is when you equip a job Crystal. Just adjust that.

[DragonFlyy]

ACN though, which was officially designated as a magic DPS, (and thus INT would be it's guiding stat), suddenly had a healer Job option in addition to it's DPS Job - thus those who put all their AP into INT and wanted to play as SCH found themselves stuck, as their healing spells (which required high MND) was neutered.

Neutered is a bit of an over exaggeration. I play a SCH and the difference between having the MND and not with points is a low amount (added maybe 100-200 to my heals at 50). I figured out the problem around my 40s and decided to just put all the points into PIE and the mana boost wasn't great, but to me was better than the MND and it helps both jobs.

[Paladinleeds]

Neutered is a bit of an over exaggeration. I play a SCH and the difference between having the MND and not with points is a low amount (added maybe 100-200 to my heals at 50). I figured out the problem around my 40s and decided to just put all the points into PIE and the mana boost wasn't great, but to me was better than the MND and it helps both jobs.

In Savage content, let's just say those 100-200 extra HP healing matters, especially over the course of the fight. Plus the extra mind means that when you step into Cleric Stance (something a SCH often has to do), you can pump out more damage (again, which matters in Savage, those enrage timers are harsh) since the extra mind then becomes extra int.

[Khalithar]

Snip

At this point I honestly feel they should just fold those base stat bonuses in to the jobs themselves and ditch the bonus stat as you level system. Each class has only one stat worth putting points in to anyway, there is no meaningful choice or gameplay behind it. Especially now with tanks getting fixed so that full vit builds are the go to route, they may as well just get rid of it.

[Klamor]

Again this hasn't worked as well as SE were hoping - one of the main reasons for even having levels is it allows the player to gradually learn how to play as the class, starting with one or two basic abilities and then as they gain exp learn new abilities that compliment what they've already learned. With the HW Jobs however, that isn't the case. Players are suddenly chucked in the deep end and given 30 levels worth of exp instantly and told "Off you go, it's up to you now." Although most players did get the hang of the new Jobs more or less eventually, it was still a rather unfortunate affair all round and showed just how poor this idea really is.

A little dramatic there, don't you think? I would certainly hope that by the time someone has leveled a Job to 50, and subsequently unlocked their Ishgard-Job as desired, they will have some kind of idea of how to look through their abilities to see what matches up with what else.

Actually, no... you're right. There are players at Level 60, with more than one Job, that have not yet figured it out. I retract my post. Enjoy your day.

[Keramory]

That's right I completely forgot about that. I thought what they did was make it so when you switched to sch and smn they had different saves for the stats (allocation would be inputed differently as though they were two different classes)
Shows how much I know (or recall). Have both to the class to 50 but I never use smn outside showing off gear.

I think the stats allocation is a shallow pointless system within itself. If this is what failed the multiple jobs idea just take out the allocations. Asides mages if you wanted a little more mp over other stats I never saw the point as its all being dumped into one stat anyway.

[RyuRoots]

That's right I completely forgot about that. I thought what they did was make it so when you switched to sch and smn they had different saves for the stats (allocation would be inputed differently as though they were two different classes)
Shows how much I know (or recall). Have both to the class to 50 but I never use smn outside showing off gear.

I think the stats allocation is a shallow pointless system within itself. If this is what failed the multiple jobs idea just take out the allocations. Asides mages if you wanted a little more mp over other stats I never saw the point as its all being dumped into one stat anyway.

One of many cases where the idea was more varied and interesting than the reality. The only reason they can't take out allocations altogether now is because of SMN/SCH specifically. Otherwise I'd agree that it should be done away with.

Personally, I don't have that much of a problem with the way Heavensward did the 3 new Jobs, as a response to Enkidoh. It was *extremely* awkward the first day trying to get the hang of everything for each class, but spending a little bit of time with them, none of them were quite as alien as they first felt. DRK had something very akin to a Rage of Halone combo, AST has the basic heals and esuna equivalent, etc. I can't say how well or poorly this worked for the population at large, though since I haven't kept up with that. I'm curious how the next Jobs that get introduced will be handled. It definitely will be Jobs, though. The further we get into the game, the more irrelevant base classes become.

[Kaiser-Ace]

Personally, I don't have that much of a problem with the way Heavensward did the 3 new Jobs, as a response to Enkidoh. It was *extremely* awkward the first day trying to get the hang of everything for each class, but spending a little bit of time with them, none of them were quite as alien as they first felt. DRK had something very akin to a Rage of Halone combo, AST has the basic heals and esuna equivalent, etc.

My main learning curve was rearranging Ast and Drk's default hot bars to resemble my Whm and Pld's. FInding the base heal, AoE Heal, ect. Putting the HATE grabber, base 1>2>3, stun, etc together.

After that it was business as usual. And all I needed was the training dummy (and a few guildmates to test the AoE Heals) to figure out what skills were what. Mechanist didn't have nearly the learning curve for skills but to this day (Like with Bard) the rotation is still largely unknown to me.