The Mentoring Requirements... *Rant Style*

[Lemuria]

While the metrics used to determine the qualifications for the system seem arbitrary, I don't believe there is any honest substitution for actual experience. The people who'd "grind everything to 60" just to be part of this new system are likely going to be crap mentors. Actually I will go so far as to say like 60% of them will be crap mentors. Probably more. The fundamental flaw here...

I think you missed the part where you need X commendations and X number of dungeon runs to become a mentor. Those who just grind to 60 without doing much else aren't going to be meeting those requirements.

[Judah_Brandt]

I think you missed the part where you need X commendations and X number of dungeon runs to become a mentor. Those who just grind to 60 without doing much else aren't going to be meeting those requirements.

I was finishing my statement. Please reassess with less sass.

[Odett]

I thought the requirements would be much stricter. You're missing the point a bit, TC, and by saying "I don't need to know how to play a tank or healer to teach someone how to be a good DRG" you're also assuming that the player you're mentoring only wants to be a DRG. Leveling the three roles to 60 makes you a more well-rounded player, and guarantees that you'll have first-hand experience with how the 3 different roles with their full toolkit work in relation to one another.

Yes, it's true that you can't give specific advice to a would-be SCH if you have only have a WHM at 60, but the core fundamentals of healing are the same across all jobs, same goes for tanking, and DPS, the difference being what skills they have in their toolkit in order to at the very least meet the minimum requirements of their roles.

It's also worth noting that a player who has leveled a tank, a healer, and a DPS to 60, has also or will level other jobs. I'm sure that people like this exist, but I've been playing since 2013 and to this day, I've yet to meet someone has JUST has one DPS, one healer, and one tank at max level at least 6 months after the current level cap; if they have one of each, they're extremely likely to have others up there as well

Yes, just leveling a job to 60 by no means guarantees that they know how to play it, but it's the basic requirement to do endgame content, so it's probably SE's minimal way of excluding players from giving advice who haven't experienced level 60 content and understand how their role works once you have your entire toolkit at your disposal; you can't give advice if you don't know what you're talking about.

TLDR; if you want to be a mentor that badly, go and meet the very lenient requirements. If it's too much work, you don't have to be a mentor. Complaining will get you nowhere.

quick edit:

I have a Lv30 Marauder. I know the "Basics" of tanking.

No, you really don't. In fact, you've barely scratched the surface.

[Riardon]

The requirements are fine. It's supposed to be only for "veteran" players. Only new players do not match the criteria. You aren't supposed to be "veteran" experienced player if you just came to the game.

[LadyVal]

It may not add much to the discussion, but it did say the mentor roulette is specifically designed so it is easier to join your student in a dungeon. So my guess is you need one of every role, so that the dungeon can be run with the proper party makeup (because if a tank is teaching a tank, no dungeon under level 50 will have room for both of them) so you'll need to take the role that they aren't, and on top of that you'll be able to give them advice in the dungeon. The level requirement is just ensuring that you have had direct access to the core mechanics of each role, you should be able to tell a baby CNJ "Hey don't worry, your mp management becomes easier once you get Shroud of Saints and then later you'll get Assize," WHILE you are DPSing or tanking in the dungeon they need help in. The game is ensuring that you can become flexible enough to accommodate a new person undertaking any role, and not make them wait on you while you form a party so you can both go in and tank or heal. The comms I /think/ are just a guard to make sure you're not a complete jerk (though the system is flawed, admittedly) and the dungeon requirement (while high) is making sure you didn't just power level in fates, and that you could run the content blindfolded so that any questions a newbie may have, you can answer.

The system isn't designed to cater to the mentors. It is designed to cater to the students, and making sure they are getting help from qualified people who know what they are doing. Not a perfect system, but better than just judging everything on raid content or play time.

[Toguro]

The very, very basic fundamentals of all roles(DPS, Tanking, Healing) can be learned without leveling those classes. I'm talking specifically with the Mentoring time limit of 40 hours. Mentees can vary as some rush through some don't. When I joined FFXIV it was about Nov. 11, when I was lv23, it was Dec.1. I was taking it slow. My mentoring hours would have been up.

The very basic fundamentals of healing: healing of course, watching MP bars, using Cleric Stance at the right times(All newbies will be Conjurers at the beginning), knowing the effect of Cleric Stance, watching your aggro(something every role needs to know to avoid taking aggro), shielding(Protect, etc), staying within range of the tank and team to heal them, staying out of AoEs, using basic cures and AoE cures, detrimental effect removal, watching the overall status of the team.

Tank fundamentals: Keeping aggro on all enemies, position them away from your team to avoid AoEs and AoE melee attacks bosses tend to have, look at your team's classes,(I have a pugilist, I need to make sure they can get their attacks in so I must have the enemies in a position to attack efficiently), Provoking(Although technically not a "fundamental" because that is learned at lv22, you would already need to know how to tank then but Provoke is a must-know), watching your root source of enmity(TP/MP you need that to keep attacking to keep aggro), checking your team's gear(gotta know what gear they have before you do things to make decisions in the long run), knowing your enmity attacks like Skull Sunder or Savage Blade and how they work(This includes Flash range), cycling through enemies to obtain substantial aggro on ALL enemies in the group so in case a team member does not know the fundamentals of focusing, you will not lose aggro.

DPS Fundamentals: Watching your aggro so you don't take it from the tank IF they are not cycling. Stop attacking that enemy. Attack the tank's enemy, watch TP, attack, priority targets.

Once you tell them the fundamentals of the role, you may teach them the fundamentals of the class and neat tricks and cross-skills(Here's where Impulse Drive comes in, leveling Gladiator to 8 to get flash and help with AoE enmity generation, etc).
Bonus Fundamentals: You can teach them the importance of provoke, AoEing big mobs down, avoid using push attacks for no reason(Push them into tanks or away from healers or into walls to avoid moving them), using cooldowns right, using your attacks/heals right, teaching functions of traits, avoid AoEs, positionals, finishers

Those are things that a "specialist" can teach better than a non-specialist but players who play for a long time can still teach those particular things easily. Only deep job stuff requires a specialist, absolutely. That is useless though because newbies only have 40hrs.

Then there's the next section that Gunspec posted in this thread earlier. The fundamentals of the game world itself outside of fighting/combat. FCs, GCs, chocobos, sidequests unlockables, materia, dye, glamour, the market board, guildleves, guildhests, and all the other stuff the game throws at you before 30 at least minus glamour. You can teach them about the very deep options section(I think its deep, has a lot of stuff in it). Tons of stuff that you can teach outside of fighting.

^ All of these things can be done and taught by players who are at least 50(returning players and/or players who lack Heavensward). They do not, should not need a level 60 class to teach a newbie, newbie things. Your Heavensward knowledge is useless because they will never be 60 in 40hrs. The game's fundamentals were created long before Heavensward. They were created at release. Level 50s at the start of ARR 2.0(Release I mean) should be qualified to mentor as they know the fundamentals. A level 50 tank can teach just as good as a 60 tank because the fundamental skills required to teach and tank are learned at an early stage. The stuff at 60 is add-on stuff.

What SE should do is make another mentoring system for higher level players so they can engage in the next step of mentoring. Learning your class/job. THAT will require "specialists" when you get to the deepest parts of the job. But fundamentals? Basic fundamentals? That is learned through experience in the game world itself. Not leveling a healer. As a lv60 DPS, when you level a healer, you're already gonna know the general concept of healing.

Having the dungeon restriction makes no sense as you can learn the fundamentals of combat in 300 dungeons. I'm sure there are tons of people who are left out of teaching because of the requirements. Left out of teaching early fundamentals about the game itself AND combat fundamentals.

[Kyros]

Having the dungeon restriction makes no sense as you can learn the fundamentals of combat in 300 dungeons. I'm sure there are tons of people who are left out of teaching because of the requirements. Left out of teaching early fundamentals about the game itself AND combat fundamentals.

I'm just going to address this since the rest is your typical spiel of you being awesome and knowing everything.

Do you think SE cares if a large number of the population can't be mentors? Nope, not at all. Odds are the current people that already meet the criteria will be more than enough for all the new players we're getting. Like, we mentors probably outnumber new players several times over.

And another thing is that you're not looking at this from a design perspective, or even a talent-recruitment perspective. Yes, you and similarly talented players may be able to grasp the entire concept of roles without actually playing them, but without the actual job at 60 there is no way for the system to know you know. It is the same thing as looking for talent or getting new people for a job: You post requirements, and typically only very special cases get a pass without meeting these.

You might be an amazing teacher for example, but without anything that certifies it all you have is your word for it. Companies hiring teacher will simply tell you "Go get certified, you should have no trouble if you are as good as you say". This is the same concept. If you are the hotshot player that needs no experience to know the in's and out, well then what's stopping you? Go get the jobs at 60, it's not a hard requirement. SE isn't going to send a GM in person to quiz you on your knowledge of the jobs because you are a special snowflake.

Oh and another thing. You said several times that "You can grasp the fundamentals of jobs before level 40". Even if this was true (Not) North Than fate grind requires you to be at least around 40. So per your own argument, those people botting their way to 60 have "The same level of knowledge" that you claim to have. Your own arguments defeat themselves :/

[Odett]

Tank fundamentals: Keeping aggro on all enemies, position them away from your team to avoid AoEs and AoE melee attacks bosses tend to have, look at your team's classes,(I have a pugilist, I need to make sure they can get their attacks in so I must have the enemies in a position to attack efficiently), Provoking(Although technically not a "fundamental" because that is learned at lv22, you would already need to know how to tank then but Provoke is a must-know), watching your root source of enmity(TP/MP you need that to keep attacking to keep aggro), checking your team's gear(gotta know what gear they have before you do things to make decisions in the long run), knowing your enmity attacks like Skull Sunder or Savage Blade and how they work(This includes Flash range), cycling through enemies to obtain substantial aggro on ALL enemies in the group so in case a team member does not know the fundamentals of focusing, you will not lose aggro.

What you've listed is what you know from your bare-bones tanking experience. Now, suppose that a newbie tank asks you how tanking changes at higher levels.

Things you, at level 30 have experienced and can teach from first-hand experience:

-Keeping AoE enmity on trash pulls (Flash, Overpower, Unleash)

-Use your agro combo on single targets

Thing a level 60 tank can explain from first-hand experience:

-Actual defensive cooldown rotations: how they work in relation to another, cooldown synergy, as well as which cooldowns don't work together (something you have absolutely no experience with as a lv 30 MRD when Bloodbath and Foresight are your only defensive cooldowns).

-Stance dancing: when to do it, how cooldowns can make up for your lower defense or HP, which cooldowns have the highest synergy with your offensive stance or lack of tank stance, when not to stance dance.

Utility and DPS combos: what they do, how they are important to use once you have secure agro, which ones have a higher priority.

Resource management: managing your MP as a DRK, managing your Wrath/Abandons stacks as a WAR (you can't even use your stacks at level 30).

Also, about your provoke comment: you learn it at 22, but don't use it for its full effect until at least level 50, where tank swapping is first introduced. You can explain how after Provoke, it's best to follow up with a high enmity skill as WAR or PLD, or how it's safe to not do that as a DRK because your large number of otGCD attacks can make up for it if you have them up at the time you provoke. You can also teach more creative uses for Provoke, like pulling a monster before an obstacle that you can't reach with Unmend/Tomahawk/Shield Lob, like in Neverreap, or even closer to the newbie tank's 40 hour period, the patrols in Stone Vigil.

Also, not all DPS follow the "fundamentals" of focusing, because as an ARC/SMN, you have enough DoTs for your first dungeon to learn that your optimal DPS rotation for trash includes DoTing everything rather than just focusing down one monster. What you have is a very general (yet solid, for your level) and vague idea of tanking, and again, you cannot go into details when you try to explain something you have no first-hand experience with. Again, you've barely scratched the surface.

[Ronyx]

The requirements are ok, in fact there should be more and more strict I think.
1. The commendations weed out some people although I think 300 is so few, should had been more.
2. Having at least one Tank, Healer, DPS is probably the best course to be a mentor because when I had used and tried every of the roles it's when you truely get to understand each points of views and have a better scope of what everyone should be doing. Also would means that you are able to guide anyone regardless of what path he or she choose.
3. If you are so good and perfect at DPS, raiding as you said you were... then you should be close to the 1000 dungeons if you started at 3.1. There had been more than enough time for that. If you dont have 1000 dungeons then I;m sorry and keep practicing. I guess the reason behind all these dungeons is so that mentors know every dungeon and mechanic like the palm of their hands and you get that only by experiencing yourselves over and over and over a 1000 times.