Unukalhai: Primals and Eikons

[SecretCrowds]

Just pasting some dialogue I came across when I entered The Solar the other day. Can't believe I missed this. I always forget about the existence of The Solar or The Rising Stones after completing the MSQ.


Regarding Unukalhai
Unukalhai: I am Unukalhai, and I serve a friend.
Unukalhai: Lest you wonder why one so young was chosen for this task, it is because I have... How shall I put this? An intimate knowledge of the primal mind.
Unukalhai: You are curious, I am sure. But you need not understand the nature of a power to use it, do you? It is much the same with the Echo, I imagine.


Regarding Primals
Unukalhai: Ifrit, Titan, Garuda, Leviathan, Ramuh, Shiva. Born of the land and returned to it.
Unukalhai: Six primals, one for every elemental aspect. So where does that leave Ravana and Bismarck?
Unukalhai: Earth and fire. Water and wind. Your latest foes are aspected to not one element but two.
Unukalhai: A rather simple but noteworthy distinction, for it allows them to feed upon aether that much more efficiently.
Unukalhai: But, like their predecessors, there is but one recourse: they must be felled, and you are the one to whom we must turn to see it done.
Unukalhai: However, unlike before, I do not think this the work of those Ascians...
Unukalhai: It has ever been said that Eorzea is a land embraced by gods. For weal or for woe, I should wonder.


Regarding Eikons
Unukalhai: Ah, yes. The beings the Allagans dubbed eikons. How much we have yet to learn.
Unukalhai: Precisely how they stand apart from primals we have yet to determine. If they were summoned in a similar manner, then who was responsible, and how have they managed to endure for millennia?
Unukalhai: We have gained some understanding of the Dark Divinity's true nature. Yet he is but one of many, and far from the most powerful.
Unukalhai: The Warring Triad, whom the Allagans imprisoned within the Centrifugal Crystal Engine of their research facility, concerns me most of all.
Unukalhai: Their infinite power is beyond comprehension. Were they released into this world, unimaginable destruction would ensue.
Unukalhai: Simply put, that cannot be allowed to happen. The very fate of this star hangs in the balance.

Anyway, according to Unukalhai, Primals and Eikons do not differ just by names, unlike what several people have said in this forums. It seems that Eikons are the ones that have existed in a summoned state for many years, making him question how have they been able to endure such a long time assuming they were summoned similarly to Primals. I guess this refers to how much aether they would have consumed if their summoning method is the same as Primals.

[CyrilLucifer]

I believe that it was directly stated by SE that Eikons are, in fact, the same, it's just a different name for them. This is one of those times where the in-universe information is lying to you. It happens quite frequently, unreliable narrator and whatnot.

I think it was a few months back they stated it, I'm sure someone has the link for me.

Another alternative is that totally-not-second-best-Ascian-or-his-servant is intentionally misleading you. Though, honestly, I'm not sure what the purpose of that would be, because, let's face it, they're all the same to our character. We need to get rid of them and he wants you to get rid of them, so it's a mutually beneficial relationship.

(and yes, whenever I'm super bored I go sit next to not-Eli. Can't wait to see how his dialogue updates next patch.)

[Anonymoose]

Are they (more or less confirmed to be) the same? ... Yes. Are they (more or less confirmed to be) different? ... Also yes. Even just based on how each language decided to characterize Li'lidibus' exposition, his sentiments on Primals (Banshin; Barbarian God) vs. Eikons (Tonshin; God of War / Warring God) ranges from Garleans, I don't think that word means what you think it means. to Eh, potato, patahto.

I made a post about how I theorize they're different not long ago, but I'll trim it down to the main idea:

<...> If you teach seven cycles of the eras worth of people the basic art of summoning, I would imagine that a juxtaposition of something summoned today versus something summoned five thousand years ago would yield some differences. <...> Hells, just going from 1562 to 1572(+5) you go from Ifrit to King Thordan. You put Ifrit and Odin in a room together, sure, they're different. Put Ifrit and Odin in a room with Atomos and a Paissa? Ehhh...

Could any language's content still be misdirection? ... ... Also, also yes. It could be that the Eikons are closer to the gods that "embrace" Eorzea (given Li'lidibus' hints), though it seems like another attempt to make us question the Twelve (as Gaius and Lahabrea have done before). Their strength and persistence despite a lack of sustained worship is the huge distinction, and likely why there's a differences in names at all if it turns out there's not much of a difference in natures. Though, it stands to reason that if Hydaelyn is weaker today than she was thousands of years ago, aetheric entities summoned within her reality would be, as well.

[Kaiser-Ace]

I still hold to the idea that True Eikons don't need worshipers to maintain physical form.

That unlike primals who are given the form and traits the summoner imagens/desires during summoning, Eikons actually have a static form and set characteristics that they retain even if returned to the aetherial stream.

I theorize that when a Primal such as Ifrit is summoned, unless it's summoner is the same and summoning it for the same purpose, it will retain the appearance but not necessarily anything else. Thus a new ifrit is created each time.

Sephirot and the other two triad members on the other hand, and by extension Zantetsuken, are the same singular being no matter what. Even if permanently felled and sent back to the Aether, if summoned they will be the exact same Eikon. Memories intact including of who defeated them last.

[Februs]

I still hold to the idea that True Eikons don't need worshipers to maintain physical form.

As much as I would love for SE to do away with the "every god like entity = Primal" attitude, the evidence has unfortunately pointed to the opposite. Sephirot's preview description indicates that he was, indeed, created by a tree like race to defend them against the Allagans. His existence was dependent on the people who needed him, just like every other Primal.

Zantetsuken, as well, seems to have it's own brand of worshipers. Most people argue that the sword persists without worship, but that's not necessarily true. The Extreme versions of Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan used the bodies of a mortal host to sustain their strongest forms. So, too, does Zantetsuken. The sword feeds off the aether of its wielder, and has been doing so for hundreds of years.

I do like the idea of Eikons retaining a sense of "self" when dissipating back into the aether though. It's always been a little unclear just how much of the Primals are actually real and how much of them has been created from the wishes of their summoner. The fact that they always tend to come out as twisted machinations of the summoner's wishes (instead of the genuine article) leads me to believe that they do have an essence of some kind.

[Alice_89th]

Zantetsuken, as well, seems to have it's own brand of worshipers. Most people argue that the sword persists without worship, but that's not necessarily true. The Extreme versions of Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan used the bodies of a mortal host to sustain their strongest forms. So, too, does Zantetsuken. The sword feeds off the aether of its wielder, and has been doing so for hundreds of years.

I got the impression that it feeds of the aether of the shroud, and uses people their desire to get stronger as 'worship'. The Host it chooses is very much an unwilling host, it seems like anyone that picks up the blade can be affected. As shown when you retrieved the sword and you went unaffected (possibly echo related) and some poor woodwailer guard ended up as host instead.

[Fenral]

Can I get into theological metaphysics for a bit? There's some real-world history that actually applies pretty well to the setting, so bear with me.


In most systems of worship (Judeo-Christian faiths included) worship is a quantifiable force directed at a specific entity, be it Yahweh, Zeus, Ra, or even Mother Nature Herself. More worship == more power. There's some literal truth to this as well, as more widespread religions naturally have more worshipers, thus more worship, and an easier time of acquiring new followers.

Prior to the ADs (excuse me, CE), it was accepted that all pantheons actually existed concurrently, so it would not be unheard of for a household to have a shrine to the Greek Hera, the Roman Janus, and the Egyptian Ra at the same time. All gods were gods, and you could believe in the ones who you felt were proven to you without necessarily rejecting the others.

The First Commandment of Judaism (and later Christianity and Islam) kind of threw a wrench in all that. Unlike most other religions that were around at the time, Hebrew scriptures outright prohibited acknowledging other deities. They also prohibited the creation of idols and icons (pronounced just like 'eikon'), which is pretty much a blanket term for any object of worship that might receive worship in place of God Himself.

In Garlean terms, an Eikon (or even a Primal) is a manifest object of worship whose very existence apparently damages Hydaelyn (our One True God). There's also a one-summon-per-god rule in place that seems to suggest that, once summoned, that being becomes the recipient of all prayer directed at it from anywhere.

The Allagans' solution to primal/eikon summoning was to seal them away, rather than dissipate them, preventing re-summoning by leaving the object of the summoners' prayers intact, but it's still not known what long-term effect (if any) this had. Bahamut was sealed up in Dalamud for 5000 years, so was he draining Aether all that time, or were the coils sustaining him on their own?

If a sealed primal's existence in that state is still a drain on the mothercrystal, this could end up as a really unfortunate religious (in)tolerance Aesop that says that "false gods" are better off destroyed than isolated, but we're still unsure of how the mothercrystal herself even works at this point.

Eikons (the real ones), on the other hand, seem to be self-sustaining, with seemingly limitless reserves of energy coming from somewhere even absent the power of direct worship. It could be as simple as them having their own connection to the Lifestream that doesn't require going through Hydaelyn... Or it could be something especially weird like them being the same as primals, but from another plane of existence (like wherever the Warrior of Darkness is from), so that the burden of their summoning is payed by Zodiark and not Hydaelyn.

[Kaiser-Ace]

As much as I would love for SE to do away with the "every god like entity = Primal" attitude, the evidence has unfortunately pointed to the opposite. Sephirot's preview description indicates that he was, indeed, created by a tree like race to defend them against the Allagans. His existence was dependent on the people who needed him, just like every other Primal.

Thus doesn't outright jeopardise the validity of my theory.

While I don't believe they need worship to MAINTAIN a physical form once summoned, I still think Eikons need to be intentionally summoned the first time in order to obtain a physical form.

After they have that physical form though, only their destruction causes them to lose it. Where as primals can actually burn themselves out and dissipate simply by using more aether than they take. (That being a possible explanation on why ifrit doesn't just march to Ul'dah's gates and temper everything in sight)

So even if Sephirot's form that Allag faced was summoned some 5000 years past, since they were unable to actually kill it and the other triad ny theory, if correct, means that by the eikon's will alone it can exist where as a primal requires a continuous supply of worship in order to not fall apart.

And it may simply turn out that their ability to do so may be nothing more than being able to absorb all 6 forms of elemental aether instead of just one or two and by extension be able to leech off the mother crysta's aether as their sole source of energy where as primals only seem to drain one or two at most (With Bahamut and Phoenix as possible exceptions) thus making the power of an Eikon greater than a primal on the most basic level.

[Februs]

Snip

If you follow the FATE lore, than the person who defeats Odin is the next in line to be the host. In the case of the Dark Divinity Trial lore, the WoL is protected by the echo so they cannot be tempered. The original Ifrit fight outlined it pretty well. We belong to Hydaelyn, so no other god can have us. Therefore, the next available person who does not possess the echo is the new host. It can also be theorized that the new host is strong, as the FATE lore seems to imply that the sword seeks out strong hosts after each death (Ie: the guy who lands the final hit is the strongest guy in the mob). That last bit has never been explicitly confirmed though.

That said, we do not know (with certainty) that the host of Zantetsuken is unwilling. We don't know anything about the origin of the sword or who used it first, but Odin willingly took up the blade. He needed power to fight against the Allagans and save Urth. The sword gave him what he wanted.

The Woodwailer is an unknown factor; however, I'm not so quick to assume he/she is unwilling either. Given that we don't know anything about the person who made off with the sword, we can't say for sure that they did not want the sword. Further, it's not impossible that he/she was tempted by the power of the sword. The original FFXIV legend of Odin says that he actually withstood the influence of the sword for a long time before it finally overcame him. It was actually described as a curse, rather than a tempering. It implies that the blade tempts people to use it. The Woodwailer may have simply succumb to the temptation of wielding that tremendous power.

It's also possible that they were flat-out tempered by Zantetsuken. Tempering makes the victim a slave to the god's will, but it also makes them completely devout to that god. We've seen it a couple of times. Tempered don't always act like mindless puppets. Sometimes they act like zealots. A religious zealot would be more than willing to pick it up the sword and use it if they thought that was their god's will. Given that Zatetsuken's "religion" is all about strength, power, and combat, it would follow that a tempered victim would seek out the strongest weapon around.

I definitely agree that the desire for power is the faith that the blade seems to sustain itself on, though, and the Shroud is physically effected by his presence; so, it's not impossible that the bulk of the aether is sucked directly from the land.

[Februs]

This doesn't outright jeopardize the validity of my theory.

While I don't believe they need worship to MAINTAIN a physical form once summoned, I still think Eikons need to be intentionally summoned the first time in order to obtain a physical form.

I see ... and I like it.

Personally, ever since it was explained that the Primals were possibly twisted forms of real or true beings (ie: Bahamut) I was kind of hoping that the Eikons were full blown real beings called from another realm. So, I was extremely disappointed when I read that Sephirot is just another, stronger, version of the same thing we've been dealing with the whole time. That said, if it is going to be just another summoned creature that was created by desperate wishes of an endangered people, I hope they turn out to be unique in at least some way. The idea that an Eikon can sustain itself after being summoned sounds like the next best thing to having them be true gods. I'm still not sure there is enough evidence to support it (Odin being the giant thorn in the side of the game lore, at the moment), but it sounds good.

That said, I think it might be more likely that your second hypothesis is correct. Eikons being able to absorb all 6 forms of aether interests me, because the aetheric types were also mentioned by Unukalhai (when he explains the difference between Ravana and Bismark over the other Primals we've faced). They seem to be hinting at a kind of hierarchy of primals, in which the types of aether they can absorb and use dictates their level of strength. Given that the strongest of the primals (Bahamut, Odin, Alexander, etc) are not physically tied to one specific element (ie: Ifrit is wreathed in flames) could be a hint pointing in this direction.