Tanks using their enmity combo while being OT

[Iagainsti]

Who blame, Pld trying to max his dps but maybe a bit too greedy, Whm probly not using SoS, or War losing an add with the copied aggro table from phase1. I don't know, I asked the Pld to let me Mt, and hopefully no more aggro issues.

Sounds like the Whm was spamming Medica II, or as I affectionately refer to it, "Cool it on the Cure VI plz".

[Syzygian]

Sounds like the Whm was spamming Medica II, or as I affectionately refer to it, "Cool it on the Cure VI plz".

No no no don't you get it? The entire point of this thread is if the MT loses hate its 100% their fault all the time no questions asked and under no circumstances should a gud player that is not the MT ever consider their enmity generation. That's a train that stops for nobody! ><

[AlexiIvaniskavich]

Each time you use RH (would it be in your opener or anywhere in the fight), the only question you'd have to ask yourself is "why can't I do a RA instead?".
If the answer is:
a)because the WAR OT won't apply SP, so I need to keep RH debuff,
b)because the WAR OT's Butcher's block will generate too much enmity, so I need to generate more,
... then it's a potency loss for the group in either cases, not even accounting the fact that RH debuff is worse than SP.
Same line of thinking applies to "why can't I be in Sword oath right now?". If it's because of BB from the OT WAR, then it's a problem and a great loss for the group.


Of course, if it's not any of these very few and specific cases, then it's probably fine.

AND

This guy gets it.

Like in my raid I have a planned out set of enmity combos on a boss in each phase and know generally how much threat my healer(s) is going to generate. Any extra I have to use on Paladin OR Dark Knight is a straight damage loss. Warriors doing BB/SE for extended periods of time does more enmity than what I have planned and is a straight raid dps loss to correct for.

And yes I have cleared savage turns on both Paladin and Dark Knight.

Thank you for clarifying! It sounds like we are not far off on the RoH usage (with my present exception to a physical heavy fight – meaning I have some new things to work on)

I run into too many people that simply don’t have a high level of understanding about how PLD can be optimized. “Spam Flash, ?what is SwO?, etc etc. The unfortunate side effect is that I have found what I think is normal is nowhere close to many other peoples definition of normal.

There was an entire linkshell conversation that a friend of mine witnessed, where they said that there were no PLD’s that could push out over 1k as OT and couldn’t MT over 600 ( I think that second number is right, but may be wrong, I wasn’t in game.) Neither of these are true, I do them and honestly if I can manage level of play, so can anyone who puts forth effort. *** side note, my TP was floored at about 2:45- 2:50, dammit SE

Witnessing so many tanks that only feed into the negative stereotypes of each tank class (I’m a PLD I don’t do damage, I’m a WAR hur dur mah deeps, I’m a DRK but really I’m a former DPS – what is a cool down?) I simply don’t take the definition of normal for granted.

So my apologies Instrumentality, for my initial confusion about your statement.

[AlexiIvaniskavich]

.....Then what happened here, Pld was standing in SwO after his first RoH combo pull on ShO, his aggro was so low at phase change, when I paid attention, the Whm was like 2 on the enmity list but his bar was totally full, and mine a bit lower.

Who blame, Pld trying to max his dps but maybe a bit too greedy, Whm probly not using SoS, or War losing an add with the copied aggro table from phase1. I don't know, I asked the Pld to let me Mt, and hopefully no more aggro issues.

Sadly, Syz has a “valid” point, though in actuality Iagainsti is correct. Healers only get that high if they are a Medica 2 bot, or are in panic healing mode and way over AoE. But boy oh boy, tell a healer that is guilty of that and 8/10 will tell you where to stick it.

I’ve noticed this more and more as we are testing out a new healer for our raid group. These result in mana issues, which in turn suck the damage out of your BRD/MCH .

[Lyth]

While there's been a lot of discussion about fault, I don't think that's really the take-home message from this thread. As a tank, you always have to adjust your play-style to the people you're playing with. There's always something more that you can do on a personal level to help improve raid performance and bolster others' weaknesses.

If your WAR OT absolutely refuses to deviate from a stock two-combo rotation in response to the present enmity levels, then you will have to use more threat combos or stance dance to compensate. There's no point in sticking to your guns, losing aggro, and then arguing about it while dps gets cleaved and loses their positionals.

In situations like these, it's better to cut your OT some slack. Sometimes, people just want to be able to enjoy the game without dealing with the hassle of being a real tank or a real dps. Sometimes, people just want to relish the coarse sensation of their face gliding across the keyboard, and being forced to watch enmity bars gives you eye-strain and gets in the way of that. Don't begrudge them their fun; adapt and move on.

We're not really talking about this kind of tank.

The principles discussed in this thread apply to situations in which both your MT and OT are actively collaborating to coordinate their enmity generation and maximize raid dps. The enmity lead might seem uncomfortably slim at times, but this is both intentional and planned for; MT is actively trying to expend as much of their resources into dps as possible. In these situations, should we get the WAR to sneak in one more BB while MT widens the threat gap? Or should we get WAR to pull back a bit while the MT pushes more dps? What's the best way for us to maximize our combined dps and get the most use of our combined cooldowns and resources?

These are the sort of tanks that we're talking about. If you feel this doesn't apply to you, don't worry about it.

[Syzygian]

Okay so here's a scenario.

WAR and DRK are fighting a thing. DRK is MTing outside of Grit after having established enmity with a 3-4 GCD Grit opener w/ Power Slash, dropping Grit afterwards. Both are now in their DPS stances. DRK is contributing proc-DPS and has access to Blood Weapon and Blood Price MP, WAR is getting all their cleaves, full Berserk uptime, and keeping Storm's Eye up, with Butcher's Block combos in between.

DRK is dealing 1200 sustained DPS (accounting for having Storm's Eye from the WAR).

WAR is dealing 1200 sustained DPS.

Both are of equal gear and identical Attack Power.

Now lets say, for the sake of this instance, that 200 of that WAR's 1200 DPS is from BB combos. Given the modifiers of Skull Sunder (3.5) and Butcher's Block (5.5) we can average out that that 200 DPS from the BB combo is modifying that fraction of their DPS by a factor of 4.5x. Any number really, will work here, these don't need to be accurate to prove a point.

Lets say that in the opener, the DRK generated 20000 points of enmity (damage dealt*any modifiers). The WAR generated 10000.

Now, with them both dealing 1200 DPS but the WAR dealing 1900 TPS (threat per second), in well under a minute, the WAR will catch up with the DRK's lead.

So, the WAR can either allow the DRK to maintain their lead by using SE in place of BB, unless SP is needed, and deal 1190 DPS instead of 1200, or, knock the DRK down to 1150 DPS by forcing them to use Power Slash more than is optimal.

I'll also note that the use of Power Slash is not only a DPS loss but an MP (and therefore further DPS loss) for the DRK, whereas repeated SE usage means Maim and the Slashing debuff are less in danger of falling off should there be a few seconds of downtime for a mechanic, which is a potential DPS gain for the WAR, as well any other users of slashing damage.

Letting the WAR MT (outside of arguably the opener as many people have said) in this scenario is also a DPS and mitigation loss for the raid. There are likely to be fewer Fell Cleaves, no Reprisal (therefore less mitigation) or Low Blow procs from the DRK, and no Blood Price returns forcing a more restrictive rotation. Arguments stating that so-and-so should just MT are fallacious and assume a premise that was never put in place, which is that there is some ridiculous gear discrepancy rendering these numbers moot, and posit that if the WAR must sacrifice any amount of potency it can only be due to a lack of skill or gear on the part of their MT, which is needlessly antagonistic and also categorically untrue. Are you not hitting the peak of your personal DPS by a couple dozen points of damage per second? Perhaps. But is that more important than a net-loss for the -group-? You may see it as you being forced to play suboptimally but know that you risk forcing another player to play exponentially MORE suboptimally, thus a net-loss for the group. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one.

That being said, WAR is still a tank and any tank should know how to read enmity meters, and therefore, they can know at any given time if it is in fact safe to use a BB combo for extra DPS, and can easily come to the conclusion that if their enmity has reached a level where the meters between them and their MT are scarcely a pixel apart, the responsible thing for them to do in that scenario is to stop generating excess enmity. It is an extremely small sacrifice to make for the sake of the group and is NOT your MT's fault unless you are in pug content and the MT very clearly and demonstrably does not know what they are doing; and even then, in the interest of getting oneself OUT of the DF and moving on with one's day, my recommendation would be to not troll the guy and just work around his inadequacies, a wipe followed by you lecturing him won't teach anybody anything, it'll just piss people off and lengthen the period of time that they're stuck in the duty finder with you.

You and your party are not supposed to be fighting for a clear against your MT's enmity, you're fighting for a clear against the boss. Pull together, not apart, kill the boss, use ALL of your tools and judgement to make that happen as cleanly as possible; you are not an island unto yourself if you're in a party with 7 other people.

[AI_wass]

Sadly, Syz has a “valid” point

I think you missed the sarcasm, there.

[AlexiIvaniskavich]

I think you missed the sarcasm, there.

Nope, I got it like Von Miller got Cam Newton on Sunday.... BOOM

The truth of the situation (healer problem) becomes obscured by the perception (that it's only the fault of the MT for loss of emnity).

My point - get your popcorn and butter, because if you tell a healer that situation is their fault, the salt shall most undoubtedly fly.

[Iagainsti]

Nope, I got it like Von Miller got Cam Newton on Sunday.... BOOM

[Instrumentality]

T.J. Ward's reaction to the Von Miller dance is the best in the NFL



He's like "I dunno what you're doing, man, but I feel you."

Edit: Also to keep it a bit on topic, I guess we all kind of agree now? This is cool.