Tanks using their enmity combo while being OT

[Instrumentality]

This guy gets it.

When I got my 210 weapon I mentioned on raid night I might have to go easy. My MT responded, "you better not."

It's not going easy so much as it is you not harming your raid group by playing badly?

I dunno how much more simple it can be. Every time your MT has to do an extra enmity combo to stay ahead of you, you cost your raid more potency per second than you gain by doing BB. It is mathematically impossible for it to work otherwise.

Edit: Unless you dual warrior. In which case your MT is never going to lose hate anyway.

[Lethallin]

I just rotate SE and SP combo back and forth when OTing.

A 40 potency loss every 2 rotations for a permanent 10% damage dealt reduction on the boss seems worth it for me. For the 6 GCDs, it'd be 1200 Potency vs 1240 potency, which is a little more then 3.3% damage loss. If you factor in that we'll get about one Fell Cleave per 6 GCD's, it'd be 1700 vs 1740 per 7 GCD's, or about a 2.5% damage loss. This is also ignoring Auto-Attacks, and other abilities.

2.5% damage loss in exchange for the MT not worrying about OT threat, and a permanent 10% damage reduction should be worth it for everyone.

[Iagainsti]

I just rotate SE and SP combo back and forth when OTing.

A 40 potency loss every 2 rotations for a permanent 10% damage dealt reduction on the boss seems worth it for me. For the 6 GCDs, it'd be 1200 Potency vs 1240 potency, which is a little more then 3.3% damage loss. If you factor in that we'll get about one Fell Cleave per 6 GCD's, it'd be 1700 vs 1740 per 7 GCD's, or about a 2.5% damage loss. This is also ignoring Auto-Attacks, and other abilities.

2.5% damage loss in exchange for the MT not worrying about OT threat, and a permanent 10% damage reduction should be worth it for everyone.

While I do commend you for thinking of your party by doing this, SP really only needs to be applied prior to subsequent big hits, or "tank busters" what with the current ilvl>required ilvl for current content. Most healers will now be overhealing the whole fight and you'll be short on damage.

Food for thought.

[Syzygian]

I have lost hate as a DRK only on the dreaded, but loved triple crit fell cleave.

I don't buy it. It takes 3 Fell Cleaves and an additonal 40 potency to equal the hate of a single Butcher's Block. I'd say its worse if you're losing hate to 3 FCs divided up between 9-10 GCDs than against a single BB, all other things being equal.

Anyway I dunno how people aren't grasping the math. If the MT is dropping tank stance and doing an optimal dps rotation and the WAR is using BB every other combo they WILL catch up and rip hate, it has nothing to do with skill or gear its simple math. I can't speak for PLD, but a DRK having to use PS instead of DASE just negated the raid DPS potency gains of 6.5 BB combos. Those numbers speak for themselves.

Not saying never use BB but be intelligent about it.

[SpookyGhost]

3x FC is all done under Berserk and IR, plus the crit stacks, plus (at least for the opener) Battle Litany/TA. Even though it's not optimal, the WAR could also use BB and skyrocket their enmity generation further during 3x FC. I can see it being possible to pull, but not if you use SE exclusively during it (which you should).

[AlexiIvaniskavich]

You are doing less damage than you otherwise could while keeping hate against your warrior offtank and he is harming your raids' dps output. The tradeoff to do an enmity combo on the MT is greater than the loss of your warrior doing SE/SE. Hope this helps.

For every extra enmity combo you have to do because of an offtank, you lose >80 potency. For every SE/SE combo you have to do as a WAR you lose 20 potency. It's really not hard to figure out which is a bigger raid dps loss.

being more specific, my exact combo rotation is: RoH combo > Goring > RA combo - when I PLD. On a fight like Thordan, I prefer keeping the RoH debuff up as much as possible, but there are phases where I skip this in favor of a RA combo. ***Not leading into a discussion about mitigation.

Moving to a fight like A1s that is more magic based, my starting combo was the same, but I would slide into a Goring > RA > RA > , <repeat> , <sub one RA for RoH>, <go back to goring/RA x2>
It got spicy if I tried to squeeze in a 3rd RA combo before re-applying RoH, or if I pulled and stayed in SwO, or the double/triple crit fell cleave. (keep in mind this is pre-split). Perhaps you and I have a different (however slight) of a definition of what an "extra emnity combo" is. Perhaps the difference is simply the fact that the PLD OT rotation is different from it's MT rotation. WAR uses the same combo for either MT/OT role, DRK - outside of opener - uses it's DPS rotation almost exclusively in MT role. (it is weirdly wonderful to maintain hate and simply dps as a DRK, but kind of odd that the enmity combo is as avoidable as it is today).

********

Unless you/anyone wish to toe the line of tank homogenization, PLD is built differently from the other tanks in concern to the MT rotation. Playing it optimally as a MT is different game play, than playing it optimally as OT and I view these roles as different within any fight, just as a main healer/off healer role is different. It is, quite frankly, a different mindset than what a DRK/WAR MT enters a fight with.
Perhaps our separation is based upon the ideal that PLD MT is not meant to be the same series of buttons (offensive) as PLD OT. In which case, I should have worded my opening post differently.

But, Instrumentality, you have alluded to a point I made a while back on another thread. Playing PLD as MT is not optimal damage wise, in any situation. PLD’s best role in the game today is as OT. As MT role, WAR’s don’t need defiance and can still run their highest potency combo (self healing, yo), and DRK’s barely need grit (but have skills that counter grits damage reduction) and barely use their enmity combo anyway (outside of initial pull). 20 seconds into a fight, PLD pulls weaker numbers as MT than both tank classes, by a significant portion. The amount of separation in the OT numbers is not quite so severe, but yes PLD is still in the cellar. A WAR or DRK lose less sliding from OT to MT than what a PLD does.

@syz – I was referring to what spookyghost mentioned – the ridiculous burst that 3xFC is under the Berserk/et all timer. And to be fair, I was pushing that line as much as I could at the time (and it was early for me as a DRK, I was still toying with openers – this was just after 3.1 ish). I did not mean to imply I always lose hate there, but I didn’t state otherwise. I haven’t lost hate as a DRK to any co-tank in quite some time.

Having said ALL OF THAT, it could be my fault because I put on a different hat when I PLD MT than when I PLD OT. I personally view the two roles almost as different classes. Which the other tank classes don’t have to do at all.

[AlexiIvaniskavich]

....When I got my 210 weapon I mentioned on raid night I might have to go easy. My MT responded, "you better not."

MT mentality right there.

Getting off topic, I just imagined how the conversation MIGHT go, if I ran into Iagainsti while doing ThorEx on Zalera and telling him to MT while I go PLD OT…. It involved a sudden onset eye twitch and an “ORLY” followed by a lengthy stare in which he is imagining Fell Cleaving my character.
…..Followed by a lol/jk and a class change to DRK.

[Instrumentality]

Having said ALL OF THAT, it could be my fault because I put on a different hat when I PLD MT than when I PLD OT. I personally view the two roles almost as different classes. Which the other tank classes don’t have to do at all.

But none of what you said has anything to do with what I said?

[Iagainsti]

MT mentality right there.

Getting off topic, I just imagined how the conversation MIGHT go, if I ran into Iagainsti while doing ThorEx on Zalera and telling him to MT while I go PLD OT…. It involved a sudden onset eye twitch and an “ORLY” followed by a lengthy stare in which he is imagining Fell Cleaving my character.
…..Followed by a lol/jk and a class change to DRK.

Actually, I'd say "Go for it" seeing how I MT in Deliverance no prob so far in Thor ex. The Stance Dance for Heavenly heel is real. I think it'd be a dps loss of what, 1 fell cleave for IB and one 3 GCD combo every 1-2 minutes? been two weeks since my last thor run, so I may be off on the timing.


off topic, I use /em mostly to state my opinions, followed by fireworks. You'll never get an "ORLY" out of me ;D

[SpookyGhost]

off topic, I use /em mostly to state my opinions, followed by fireworks. You'll never get an "ORLY" out of me ;D

Hit 'em with the ol' razzle dazzle.