Tanks using their enmity combo while being OT

[Ultimatecalibur]

It's a dps loss for the under geared tank to be MTing anyway.

No, its a dps gain. If you have one tank that can get 1600 DpS as a OT and one tank that can get 1400, the stronger tank will loose about 480 dps MTing and the weaker tank will loose 420.

[Crater]

And it's not an issue of gear in the first place.

[Bashum]

Hmm, I've been with my static for about 2 months now, my warrior has essentially the exact same quality of gear as our MT, who is a paladin, and not once have I ever ripped hate off of him. This is in full slaying accessories right side that are all 210, except for one ilvl 190 ring.

My burst dps during the initial rotation is typically ahead of at least 1 or 2 of our actual dps classes, unless bad RNG means I get few crits, and I alternate between storm's eye and butcher's block building up to triple berserked cleaves, so I don't really know what to tell you. :x

[StouterTaru]

No, its a dps gain. If you have one tank that can get 1600 DpS as a OT and one tank that can get 1400, the stronger tank will loose about 480 dps MTing and the weaker tank will loose 420.

This 30% damage loss is 100% tank stance vs 100% dps stance? If your MT is 100% tank stance and losing hate, the issue is your MT.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

No, its a dps gain. If you have one tank that can get 1600 DpS as a OT and one tank that can get 1400, the stronger tank will loose about 480 dps MTing and the weaker tank will loose 420.

That is entirely incorrect. The higher the gear discrepancy, the more DPS lost, as the MT will have to not only stay in tank stance, but use more enmity combos to compensate for the massive hate gen of the ot, while the better geared tank in comparison will have much more freedom to stance dance and use their higher DPS combos, if a PLD or DRK. It's simple math.

[Syzygian]

I compiled a list of the most important posts in this thread since a great many folks seemed to have completely missed them the first time. =]

There was recently a discussion and analysis on this subject: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._their_threat/

Here's the summary:
The highest potency combo on WAR is also their highest threat combo (with an inbuilt enmity modifier of 3x on the second hit and 6x on the third hit). The same is not true for PLD or DRK - the highest dps combo for these classes generates no additional enmity. It is an overall raid-wide dps loss for a PLD or DRK MT to use their threat combo just to hold aggro off of an OT WAR spamming BB/SE (i.e. we can do it easily, but it hurts our dps more than it does yours). It is also a raid-wide DPS loss for PLD or DRK to OT, because every reprisal proc is equivalent to 9 BB combos, and every shield swipe proc is equivalent to 5 BB combos. If you're about to take aggro as a WAR OT, either weave in an SP combo to boost healer dps, or if the thought of a 40 potency loss every 3 GCDs is too painful, just double SE and take a 20 potency loss instead. Your raid group will love you for it, and you'll get to feel almost as awesome as you did before.

This is right.

Here's a tl;dr for the sake of this thread and for lazy people: if your BB combo forces your MT into doing more enmity combo to keep aggro, then it's an overall raid-wide DPS loss (if your MT isn't also a WAR, obviously).

DRK is worse. You lose 130 potency if you do a Power Slash instead of a DA'ed Soul Eater.
PLD "only" lose 80 if they do a RoH instead of a RA.

In comparison, a WAR going SE > SP instead of SE > BB will only lose 40. (SE > SE only lose 20.)

The difference is so huge that I'm not sure buffs and tank stances would even change that.

So, in short terms, the goal is to allow the MT (DRK or PLD) to do as much DPS rotations as possible during the entire fight. If the WAR OT reduce that number of DPS rotations from the MT because of its BB combo, then the overall raid DPS will be lower.
Same goes for forcing the MT to stay in Tank stance longer to compensate the high enmity of BB.

You don't understand what is being said here. It's not about "hurr durr if u lose hate ur bad! git gud scrub" it's about maximising the number of DPS combos the MT can do while not being threaten by Butcher's Block enmity.
If the MT has to trade a DPS combo for an enmity one because of the OT's BB, then the loss from the will be greater than the gain.

In an ideal situation, the OT shouldn't be higher -or barely- in enmity than the first DPS (or heal) of the aggro list. This would allow the MT to minimize the duration of his tank stance while maximizing the number of DPS combos he can do.

Also, centered text is obnoxious to read.

Also, bear in mind that the above discussion applies to collaborative tanking scenarios where MT and OT are working together to maximize raid dps. It doesn't really apply to situations in which two tanks are spamming their RoH, BB, or PS combos to determine who is truly more metal.

Just doing some napkin math, the BB combo does about 797 enmity potency per hit and SE does 203 (alternating between the two averages to 500). On DA SE is about 267, Del is 226 and PS is 857. Even when you factor in Grit, DA SE becomes 614 and Del becomes 519 before accounting for the damage reduction modifier. If you're both trying to maximize your respective dps, it can be tight at times, and there are going to be moments when one of you will have to make a compromise.

Enmity is always the tank's responsibility. But even though we sometimes view OT as a form of specialized dps class, it still is a tank, and its actions (even ones used to maximize dps) have inbuilt enmity modifiers that can rival (if not exceed) the enmity of being in tank stance. Accidentally taking enmity as OT is like messing up a tank swap. It's an error, not a sign of exceptional dps.

W-what? Contribute to the raid? Playing like a support class? Are you some kind of c-c-c-communist?!

All joking aside, this thread has become a pretty damning indictment of the DPS IS GOD mentality. The idea of contributing to the group for a minuscule sacrifice in potency has got people hissing "baaaaad," as though to do such a thing would be unthinkable. Tunnel vision.

You litteraly said "ignoring everything about group synergy is being a good tank".

Everytime a MT (DRK/PLD) have to use an enmity combo to keep up with the OT WAR's Butcher's block, the group loses overall potency.
Even if you use Storm's Path instead of BB, if it allow the MT to use a single DPS rotation instead of an enmity one, the whole group's potency will increase.


... But who cares, right? Be a good Tank, yay.

Things have probably changed quite a bit since I was a WAR main pre-Heavensward, but I remember more than a few instances where failing to put up SP in time during early progression guaranteed that your lowest HP dps died to Megaflare. I understand that it's a 7 potency loss/GCD to SE/SP instead of a 3 potency loss/GCD for SE/SE when you're catching up on aggro, but when you have one of the most powerful raid wide damage mitigation abilities in the game, sometimes you just take the dps loss.

Hell, if you don't want SP, I'll take it back off you, thank you very much.

Or the WAR can forego a tiny amount of personal DPS in exchange for better raid DPS by letting the MT stance-dance and use their damage combos instead of their enmity combos.

Butcher's Block deals 5.5x its damage in enmity. That's the equivalent of a 1,540 potency attack. In comparison, Fell Cleave is 500, Dart Arts>Soul Eater is 400, and Royal Authority is 340.

A DRK or PLD MT /cannot/ drop stance and still maintain aggro against Butcher's Block combo spam, while dealing optimal damage on top of that. The math just doesn't work out that way.

It's not a matter of being "good enough" to hold hate. Nobody is sitting here going "Well gee golly, it's just impossible for me to keep hate over a Warrior in Deliverance using Butcher's Block and I don't know how to even do that!" Anybody with a pulse, a brain, and some fingers (and some of the more talented people who lack those things) can hold hate.

But to do that as a Paladin or Dark Knight requires the use of extra Rage of Halone/Power Slash combos, that are not required to hold hate over Monks, White Mages, Astrologians, or Warriors who are being more mindful of their threat. Rage of Halone and Power Slash are a Paladin and Dark Knight's weakest combos - every time one gets used, they are doing less damage than they would be if they were able to use a Royal Authority, Delirium, or (DA) Souleater combo.

The damage that a Paladin or Dark Knight loses from having to use Rage of Halone instead of Royal Authority, or Power Slash instead of Delirium/Souleater, is significantly greater than the damage that a Warrior loses from using an extra Storm's Eye combo instead of a Butcher's Block. No amount of "being a good MT" is going to change that simple mathematical fact.

It does not make sense for a Warrior to force a Dark Knight or a Paladin to forego 60-80 potency, so that the Warrior can gain 20 potency. Not even if the PLD/DRK is in their tank stance. Not even if the Warrior has Berserk up. Butcher's Block as an OT is only ever appropriate when it is not going to force the PLD/DRK to use an enmity combo in a place where they wouldn't otherwise be using one.

[SpookyGhost]

Summary (for WARs):

SE -> BB = Good! Not actually bad. Your highest potency combo rotation as WAR - however, this generates tons of enmity. I think there's a misconception that might spring up from this thread, and that's that WARs shouldn't be using BB as OT at all. This isn't true, you should use BB, but sparingly. The second you cross into the territory wherein your MT will lose hate or needs to do an extra Power Slash to compensate for your extra BB, you're looking at an over all group DPS loss.

SE -> SE = Fantastic! This combo has no enmity modifiers attached to it and is only 20 potency less than SE -> BB. It is extremely important to use this combo as often as possible as it allows your MT to stick to their DPS rotation, which is an overall group DPS gain. Again - don't neglect BB, the more you do this combo the more overall DPS you're losing. This is the key balancing act you need to perform as a WAR - if you don't feel confident in using BB, just stick to SE -> SE and you'll only be a bit less than optimal.

SE -> SP = ... Situational! You basically want to use this when you... want to put up SP (mainly tank busters, cleaves, and AOE damage though this really hasn't been that useful in current raid content). Using SE -> SE allows for a quicker transition into SP, but optimally you want to plan out all your GCDs so you can maximize BB uptime while still being able to put up Path when it's needed. If you're not comfortable with that, again, just stick to SE -> SE and put up SP when necessary.

Fracture = Often overlooked but will reduce enmity generation as well as increase DPS as long as you use it appropriately. Wouldn't recommend doing it if you don't want to play optimally, but it is a good way to drop hate during a tank swap as well as reduce your overall enmity generation per GCD.

Also, never drop SE. There are situations where you'll have to, mainly ones where you can't get in 6~ GCDs but need to apply Path, but they are few and far between (mainly just Oppressor's transitions in A4S and the first Cascade in A3S).

[Alistaire]

To be fair people, I never said I had problems myself now did I?

So you made a thread about a problem you don't have, assuming it's a problem at all? OK then.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

I don't care about the uses of Storm's Path utility, it's not the point. All I'm saying is that if you use BB and that forces your MT (DRK or PLD) to do an enmity combo, it'll be a potency loss for the group.

So, when you said "A good war OT uses Butcher's block to keep up high DPS.", I basically answered with "not if it forces a potency loss for your MT".
Come on, it's not that hard to get.

This. The good WARs aren't the ones who use eye -> butchers recklessly, the good WARs are the ones constantly analyzing their threat, allowing the MT to maximize their dps up-time while having breathing room on enmity. This is especially true during speed kills, where it's required for DRK/PLD to forsake as much enmity as possible for the sake of dps when they're MT.

Clear time/group dps > personal dps, all day long. If you get a tank that wants to sit in tank stance and 1-2-3 all day, then by all means go eye -> butcher's all day, since that'd be optimal. But if your MT is actively maxing their dps output and you're approaching their enmity level as an OT WAR, lay off and take the 20 potency hit. The dps they gain from not having to enmity combo FAR surpasses yours.

[WolfKid]

I'm a bit surprised of people taking what i said seriously, those who didn't just continue what they do best. Honestly this thread should've died at the 2nd page. (i wasn't trying to troll mind you.) I seen players do a lot of things that work in their favor, I was simply posting an opinion here, and lets be honest here, 100% of the community isn't going to change their game style over what some RANDOM player THINKS. There, i said it. I started it, so now i'm ending it.

So come at me Bro.