Tanks using their enmity combo while being OT

[Ultimatecalibur]

I had not really thought about it, but OP is pretty much right.

A Warrior OT in Deliverance doing SE -> BB looses about 42 net potency per 6 GCDs (7 net potency per GCD) if they switch to SE -> SP.

A Paladin MT in Shield Oath doing GB -> RA -> RA looses 64 net potency per 9 GCDs (7.11 net potency per GCD) if forced to switch to GB -> RA -> RoH and 128 net potency per 9 GCDs (14.2 net potency per GCD) if forced to switch to GB -> RoH -> RoH. In Sword Oath the losses are 8.88 net and 17.77 net. 65.33 net if the Paladin needs to both switch to Shield Oath and use GB -> RoH -> RoH to maintain enmity.

The group looses more DpS with equally geared tanks by forcing Paladin MTs to use RoH than it does by Warriors keeping SE and SP up instead of using BB.

[Whiteroom]

I had not really thought about it, but OP is pretty much right.

A Warrior OT in Deliverance doing SE -> BB looses about 42 net potency per 6 GCDs (7 net potency per GCD) if they switch to SE -> SP.

A Paladin MT in Shield Oath doing GB -> RA -> RA looses 64 net potency per 9 GCDs (7.11 net potency per GCD) if forced to switch to GB -> RA -> RoH and 128 net potency per 9 GCDs (14.2 net potency per GCD) if forced to switch to GB -> RoH -> RoH. In Sword Oath the losses are 8.88 net and 17.77 net. 65.33 net if the Paladin needs to both switch to Shield Oath and use GB -> RoH -> RoH to maintain enmity.

The group looses more DpS with equally geared tanks by forcing Paladin MTs to use RoH than it does by Warriors keeping SE and SP up instead of using BB.

That really applies to War/pally combo though. Not home so can't look up drk at the moment. It also assumes that the MT is being optimal. But really they should have a decent hat lead.with their opener.

[Ultimatecalibur]

That really applies to War/pally combo though. Not home so can't look up drk at the moment. It also assumes that the MT is being optimal. But really they should have a decent hat lead.with their opener.

Paladin enmity burst/opener isn't really that great. Paladin's only have 1 damage buff cooldown (Fight or Flight +30%) and RoH has the lowest enmity generation of all the Tank enmity combos due to having lower total potency (150/200/260 for 610) and lower multipiliers (x3/x5).

In comparison, a Warrior's enmity burst/opener has 2 damage buff cooldowns (Berserk +50% and Unchained +33.33% for a combined x2 damage increase) that can be combined with a buff/debuff combo (+5% damage -10% slash resist which is effectively a 11% slash damage buff) as well as higher total potency (150/200/280) and higher multipliers (x3.5/x5.5).

[Ashelia_Ferron]

Paladin enmity burst/opener isn't really that great. Paladin's only have 1 damage buff cooldown (Fight or Flight +30%) and RoH has the lowest enmity generation of all the Tank enmity combos due to having lower total potency (150/200/260 for 610) and lower multipiliers (x3/x5).

In comparison, a Warrior's enmity burst/opener has 2 damage buff cooldowns (Berserk +50% and Unchained +33.33% for a combined x2 damage increase) that can be combined with a buff/debuff combo (+5% damage -10% slash resist which is effectively a 11% slash damage buff) as well as higher total potency (150/200/280) and higher multipliers (x3.5/x5.5).

Er, why would you be using Unchained if OT? Most OT WARs use Deliverance, not Defiance....
Also where's the 33.33% coming from? Curious, considering all it does is get rid of the penalty from Defiance, which, again, OTs wouldn't be in.

[WolfKid]

Er, why would you be using Unchained if OT? Most OT WARs use Deliverance, not Defiance....
Also where's the 33.33% coming from? Curious, considering all it does is get rid of the penalty from Defiance, which, again, OTs wouldn't be in.

Im pretty sure he's talking about WARs MTing

[Whiteroom]

Paladin enmity burst/opener isn't really that great. Paladin's only have 1 damage buff cooldown (Fight or Flight +30%) and RoH has the lowest enmity generation of all the Tank enmity combos due to having lower total potency (150/200/260 for 610) and lower multipiliers (x3/x5).

In comparison, a Warrior's enmity burst/opener has 2 damage buff cooldowns (Berserk +50% and Unchained +33.33% for a combined x2 damage increase) that can be combined with a buff/debuff combo (+5% damage -10% slash resist which is effectively a 11% slash damage buff) as well as higher total potency (150/200/280) and higher multipliers (x3.5/x5.5).

Even with all of that, as PLD, I never had these issues unless the OT was remaning in tank stance and actively trying to take hate to troll. That or if I did something stupid like hit sprint as soon as I went to pull...

But even that lower PLD generation should change this month.

And those full VIT tanks that have trouble with hate will change too.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Even with all of that, as PLD, I never had these issues unless the OT was remaning in tank stance and actively trying to take hate to troll. That or if I did something stupid like hit sprint as soon as I went to pull...

Its more likely to happen when if the Paladin is trying to MT primarily in Sword Oath or when their is a slight gear gap and the Warrior is trying to OTing something like Void Ark and inattentive enmity creep causes boss spinning. 7 more personal potency per GCD at the cost of generating 150% more enmity isn't really worth it for the potential problems it will cause in my opinion. Especially when -10% damage inflicted by the boss should allow the Healers and MT to DpS more.

A lot of players miss that slight losses in one place can lead to bigger gains elsewhere.

But even that lower PLD generation should change this month.

Yes, that is true, but as of right now the OP's complaint is an actual (if only minor) problem. Hopefully it will be fixed without creating others.

And those full VIT tanks that have trouble with hate will change too.

The Str/Vit divide does make things worse, but that doesn't change that this is an underlying problem.

Not particularly! Unless the debuff from Path is mandatory to survive a raid buster, which only ever is necessary during progression to cheese mechanics. It's a pointless ability to use in any situation where your or the raid's survivability isn't threatened.

Even if that 10% less damage would lead to an increase in Healer DpS greater than your own loss in personal DpS?

[Whiteroom]

Its more likely to happen when if the Paladin is trying to MT primarily in Sword Oath or when their is a slight gear gap and the Warrior is trying to OTing something like Void Ark and inattentive enmity creep causes boss spinning. 7 more personal potency per GCD at the cost of generating 150% more enmity isn't really worth it for the potential problems it will cause in my opinion. Especially when -10% damage inflicted by the boss should allow the Healers and MT to DpS more.

A lot of players miss that slight losses in one place can lead to bigger gains elsewhere.


Yes, that is true, but as of right now the OP's complaint is an actual (if only minor) problem. Hopefully it will be fixed without creating others.


The Str/Vit divide does make things worse, but that doesn't change that this is an underlying problem.



Even if that 10% less damage would lead to an increase in Healer DpS greater than your own loss in personal DpS?

Tbh. If it's DF, just suck it up and throw in another enmity attack or two(not directed at you, at the conversation as a whole), most times you get OTs that will do far less.damage than any loss being discussed here, so be happy they are doing something right. In progression, where those finer points matter, the tanks should be communicating enough that this is a non issue.

[Fyce]

That really applies to War/pally combo though. Not home so can't look up drk at the moment. It also assumes that the MT is being optimal. But really they should have a decent hat lead.with their opener.

DRK is worse. You lose 130 potency if you do a Power Slash instead of a DA'ed Soul Eater.
PLD "only" lose 80 if they do a RoH instead of a RA.

In comparison, a WAR going SE > SP instead of SE > BB will only lose 40. (SE > SE only lose 20.)

The difference is so huge that I'm not sure buffs and tank stances would even change that.

So, in short terms, the goal is to allow the MT (DRK or PLD) to do as much DPS rotations as possible during the entire fight. If the WAR OT reduce that number of DPS rotations from the MT because of its BB combo, then the overall raid DPS will be lower.
Same goes for forcing the MT to stay in Tank stance longer to compensate the high enmity of BB.